Republicans Prefer Blunt Talk About Islamic Extremism, Democrats Favor Caution

Feb 5, 2016

Photo credit: Pew Research Center

By Pew Research Center

Half of Americans say the next president should be careful not to criticize Islam as a whole when speaking about Islamic extremists, while four-in-ten want the next president to speak bluntly about Islamic extremists even if the statements are critical of Islam as a whole. A new Pew Research Center survey finds that blunt talk is preferred by two-thirds of Republicans and those who lean toward the Republican Party (65%), while seven-in-ten Democrats and independents who lean Democratic express the opposite view, saying the next president should speak carefully about Islamic extremism so as not to criticize Islam as a whole.

The study also shows that many Americans think a substantial segment of the U.S. Muslim population is anti-American. While four-in-ten adults say “just a few” Muslims in the country are anti-American (or that none are), roughly half of the public believes that at least “some” U.S. Muslims are anti-American, including 11% who say “most” or “almost all” U.S. Muslims are anti-American and 14% who think “about half” the U.S. Muslim population is anti-American.

The new findings come on the heels of a separate Pew Research Center survey conducted in December 2015, which found that 46% of Americans think Islam is more likely than other religions to encourage violence and that a similar share (49%) say they are “very concerned” about the rise of Islamic extremism in the U.S.


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46 comments on “Republicans Prefer Blunt Talk About Islamic Extremism, Democrats Favor Caution

  • Well maybe they’re right, we should be just as blunt about all religious beliefs. Including the Christian fundamentalists and creationists.
    Also not forgetting to be just as blunt about the intellectual abilities of the politicians who claim to believe in this load of rubish.



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  • Aye – If you widen the set of potential (dangerous) religious nuts to include anybody who believes in absurdities. I reckon the label of Islamophobia etc cannot be attached to your shot-gun approach to address religious inspired violence.



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  • I’m always of the opinion that as far as possible, theological arguments should be left to religious adherents. I can’t see any point in getting involved in questions about what is or is not the genuine belief of a religion. Most believers disagree with each other anyway, and in all religions there are more factions and sub factions than could ever be engaged in debate by a whole universityfull of atheistic academics.

    The point is, that most religions have violent elements, some more than others, and society has a right to demand that mullahs, priests, rabbis, monks and rank and file take up the challenge and denounce them, inform on them and prevent their poison spreading. The more the state, politicians and the military intervene, the worse they make the situation. Radicalisation, intransigence, fanaticism and violence are fed by external denunciation.



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  • Republicans Prefer Blunt Talk About Islamic Extremism,

    It seems that many Republican candidates are only capable of simplistic black and white thinking, without any understanding of gradations of view, – so it would be unsurprising that their views were stated bluntly, or why they think short-termist actions, – taking a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, demonstrates a “superior” understanding of issues!



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  • I think the issue here is mainly one of paranoia. There is a deep seated streak of that running through the American psyche, especially among those of a right wing, frontier mentality which seems to require there to be some sort of “enemy” to focus on. First it was communism, the McCarthy era focused on Jews, the fall of the Berlin Wall moved the communist focus from Russia to China and now it’s Muslims after 9/11.

    The fact that the USA is about the safest country in the world from any major attack seems to go unrecognised. There’s always a boogie man under the bed who’s going to come out and getcha if eternal vigilance is not maintained. Feeding this paranoia with the whole “we’ve got to fight them over there before they attack us over here” thing is what the Bush administration used to justify the invasion of Iraq. It’s ridiculous, immature and like so much of the American problem, rooted in ignorance. Vast swathes of the electorate know so little about the world outside American borders they can’t put America’s actual safety into perspective and understand that no single country, or even coalition of several countries, could ever possibly attack the USA successfully even if they had the desire to do so. Stupid people vote for stupid decisions. Stupid politicians rely on this.



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  • 7
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    BlockqArkrid Sandwich

    I think the issue here is mainly one of paranoia.

    It’s not a phobia when they really are trying to kill you.

    You know the old joke, just cuz you’re paranoid doesn’t mean somebody isn’t out to get you.

    Taken in chronological order the texts of Islam are unique in their calls for terrorism, homicide, polygamy, slavery, rape, extortion, theocracy, suicidal jihad, and ever expanding military conquest.

    Nothing remotely like it exists in the texts of Christianity, Judaism, or any other major religion except as applied to a very small patch of land we call Palestine or Israel. To the extent that people are willing to read, understand, and implement the texts of their religion Islam poses a unique and massive threat to our civilization and our lives.

    I urge my European friends to cut Muslim immigration before the Muslim populations in Europe reach a tipping point of unstoppable march to Sharia.



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  • Taken in chronological order the texts of Islam are unique in their calls for terrorism, homicide, polygamy, slavery, rape, extortion, theocracy, suicidal jihad, and ever expanding military conquest.
    Nothing remotely like it exists in the texts of Christianity, Judaism

    Actually when you compare the bible to the koran, you find that the bible has 842 references to violence or cruelty. The koran has 333.

    I’m an equal opportunity condemner. I reserve no special exemption for either religion. The American Christian Taliban and just as bad as the Afghani Muslim Taliban… in the way they come to their respective positions. Or all religions should attract our condemnation. While we continue to scream in the sandpit, “Mine’s better than yours.” we miss the point. All religions are bad.

    I think we should all strive for the position where religions are practiced by consenting adults in private and no longer have any place in the town square. While we defend christianity over islam, we are just as bad as they are.



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  • 9
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    Actually when you compare the bible to the koran, you find that the bible has 842 references to violence or cruelty. The koran has 333.

    I’m an equal opportunity condemner. I reserve no special exemption for
    either religion. The American Christian Taliban and just as bad as the
    Afghani Muslim Taliban

    You neglect to take the texts in chronological order and apply them to their intended geographical locations.

    Indeed, the admonitions of Moses form a theological and moral justification for the invasion of what they call Judea and Samaria. But that is as far as the texts of Moses go.

    Jesus preached pacifism. He told us to turn the other cheek, not throw stones, not seek out money, give more to the robber, love your enemies and pray for their salvation.

    If you learn to apply the principle of abrogation to the texts of these 3 religions you will lose your misunderstanding, your assertion of an equivalency that is in point of textual fact false.

    All religions are false, but they are not all equally bad. Islam poses a unique and extreme danger of barbarity and violence.



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  • Jesus preached pacifism. He told us to turn the other cheek, not throw stones, not seek out money, give more to the robber, love your enemies and pray for their salvation.

    This means that all of the Republican Presidential candidates are not Christian and thus should stand down.

    Based on your argument, I note therefore your preference for Christianity. Maybe when Ted Cruz starts the war in the Middle East which will usher in the “Rapture”, the bedrock of the American Christian Taliban teachings, you will join with the rest of the membership of the RDFRS forum and condemn christianity too.



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  • 11
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    This means that all of the Republican Presidential candidates are not Christian and thus should stand down.

    Indeed, based upon the words attributed to Jesus the Republican candidates are not Christians in any textually meaningful sense. Jesus said that a camel can pass through the eye of a needle more easily than a rich man can enter the kingdom of heaven. That alone counts out the Republican front runners.

    But wait, Jesus also said the meek shall inherit the Earth, yet Republicans universally espouse peace through strength, to the extent they espouse peace at all.

    Do Republicans love their enemies and pray for their salvation? Not that I have noticed. Do they turn the other cheek? Would they give a man who robs their coat an additional coat as well? Nope, not in any Republican platform plank I am aware of.

    Clearly, the Republican claim to Jesus is mere political expediency.

    join with the rest of the membership of the RDFRS forum and condemn christianity too.

    I am wistful for the good old days when fighting the good fight for atheism meant keeping YEC idiocy out of school textbooks. Now we face a far more sinister threat. A brutal fascism surpassing even National Socialism and Imperial Japan combined in terms of ideology and suicidal religiosity in genocidal conquest ambitions. The name of this sinister threat is obvious.

    Islam



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  • @Stardusty Psyche Feb 6, 2016 at 2:30 am

    You can hear no evil. See no evil in christianity in the 20th and 21st centuries? (Plays a little thinking music)

    I am wistful for the good old days when fighting the good fight for atheism meant keeping YEC idiocy out of school textbooks. Now we face a far more sinister threat. A brutal fascism surpassing even National Socialism and Imperial Japan combined in terms of ideology and suicidal religiosity in genocidal conquest ambitions. The name of this sinister threat is obvious. Islam

    How do you think the stats would stack up, Islam Vs Christianity over recent history. 20th and 21st centuries. Numbers killed. Misery inflicted. Lets start slow with the with only 800,000 dead.

    There is a Roman Catholic priest at a medieval church an hour’s drive from Paris who has been indicted by a United Nations court for genocide, extermination, murder and rape in Rwanda.
    Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was notorious during the 1994 genocide of 800,000 Tutsis for wearing a gun on his hip and colluding with the Hutu militia that murdered hundreds of people sheltering in his church

    But wait. There’s more. Think of recent genocides. Tot up the numbers. Pol Pot. Hitler. Stalin..et al. How do you reckon they rate against genocides for which christians sole or some responsibility.

    An estimated 1.1 million [1.0 – 1.3 million] people died in the African Region from HIV-related causes in 2013

    The estimated total death toll from the HIV genocide in Africa is now well over 30 million people. Pol Pot…. A pussy. A couple of factors have contributed to this death toll. One is the christian American Taliban who through their elected members in Congress and the Senate have steadfastly refused to allow American foreign aid to include any reference to family planning. You know. Condoms. Family planning education. Sex education. A little blood on their hands there. And why? Because the American Taliban’s god tells them that they must not do certain things in relation to family planning, therefore, they are permitted to inflict their gods views on the rest of the world. Sound a bit like ISIS / ISLAM / TALIBAN / Al QAEDA?

    But lets not stop with just the American Taliban. The Roman Catholic church has published documents saying that they must not allow condom usage in Africa. The only method is abstinence. Instead of carpet bombing Iraq, if America over the last 30 years had carpet bombed Africa with condoms, they might have achieved something. Christians hey.. Psst. You know, they folk who live across the road from you in America and go to church every Sunday. Genocidal killers.

    There was a documentary about a 10 old Uganda boy, who was the sole carer for his 6 and 4 year old siblings, who live off the proceeds of his begging. Enough blood on christian hands yet.

    A little more christian blood. How about Pope Pius XII, who signed a treaty with Hitler. “I’ll leave you alone if you leave me alone.” Turn a blind eye. And Germany a Catholic nation!!! How do you think things would have gone if Pope Pius XII had called on all Catholics to disavow Hitler…. Meanwhile, just east of Germany, Stalin and atheist communism comes to an “Arrangement” with christian orthodox church ensuring they would survive, as long as they “See Nothing” in relation to Stalin’s political activity. What was Stalin’s total dead?

    Going back a little further… how many people have died as a result of christian missionaries over the centuries, converting the heathens, across the planet…

    When you compare the genocides of christianity with the activities of Islam today, it’s a no contest.

    And there’s much more daily damage done by people who profess to be christians.

    The stuff I cite is common knowledge. You may not have been aware of it but now you are. Do a little research. The conversion on the road to Damascus is open to you to join the Equal Opportunity Condemers of all religions, not just the current right wing America media favourite, the bogey man of Islam.

    And before you say it, I am equally vociferous in my vitriolic criticism of militant islam. The different with this conflict is that it is a war of ideologies, and you can’t bomb ideologies out of existence. You can only defeat them by starving them of applicants. This is the high value I place on organizations like RDFRS… They starve religion of applicants.

    Do you still want to champion christianity?



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  • I have known many muslims and I would say most of them are far more serious about the truth than many christians. They were far more prepared to engage in rational debate than most christians, who just semmed to fall back on “in the bible it says” type of argument.

    It could be the circumstances of meeting muslims was different to that of meeting christians and I was exposed to the more intellectual muslims. However, if you look back about 600 years many acts of atrocity were being carried out on behalf of the Catholic church. Just as now it was a free pass into heaven if you helped to carry out these awful violent acts.
    Since then the western world has moved on mostly by pushing religious beliefs to the sidelines. Unfortunately in the Middle East religion has moved centre stage. In the process it has become perverted by those wishing to use it as a means of political control. I would suspect the majority of genuine believers who are following this are not intellectual giants. However those that may have some grasp of whats really happening will just want to get out and have nothing to do with it. That is exactly what we can see going on now. Look at the mass migration from Syria.
    The issue in Europe right now is that many non-Syrian ‘economic’ refugees are getting in on the act together with a small number of hardline insurgents whose aim is indeed to bring Sharia to Europe.
    Most of the genuine refugees will not want this, having left to get away from what amounts to religious persecution in the first place. They are actally the majority, we must realise this, use it as an opportunity to publicly demonstrate the true evils of religion and show at the same time that Islam does not have a monopoly on religious stupidity, bigotry and general nastiness.
    In that way we will move the vast majority of muslims to our cause, even if they are still muslim by default, in the same way many describe themselves as Christian but don’t actually know anything about it.
    It has to be accepted, it is well beyond reasonable doubt that the basis for ALL religions is fundamentally and observably WRONG. This cannot be acheived if we do not treat all of them with the same level of resistance and refutation they deserve. I do agree though that right now Islam would seem to be where most of our efforts should go. Remember though that religion is just like the Hydra, new beliefs will keep popping up all the time. We need to kill the whole monster, not just one of it’s heads.



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  • As I say, there’s no point in getting involved in theological rows, it’s their business not ours. I would make one point re Christianity. I agree with Stardusty Psyche about the relationship of Republicans to the texts of Christianity. The southern hot gospellers are in fact followers of Judaic tradition, with the ceremonials stripped off.

    The teaching of Christ, which is pacifistic in substance, was supposed to entirely replace the teachings of the Old Testament, except where it was reaffirmed in the New or Christian Testament. That amounts to reaffirmation of the Ten Commandments and little else. The trouble is that the Old Testament is far more attractive to bullies, imperialists and capitalists, which is why Neo Cons virtually ignore the teachings of Christ, contained in the new and eternal covenant (Luke 22:20, Mthw 26:27, Mark 14:24, Corinthians 2, 24-25).

    But as I say, it’s far better to leave that sort of argument to them.



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  • Tim Smith
    Feb 6, 2016 at 5:11 am

    However those that may have some grasp of whats really happening will just want to get out and have nothing to do with it. That is exactly what we can see going on now. Look at the mass migration from Syria.

    Short termist militaristic Western powers and their oily allies, have funded and armed rebels to try, or succeed, in bringing down governments they do not, or did not, like. Air-strikes against the Libyan army brought down Gaddafi and left a mess which is spreading.
    Stupid attempts to bring down Assad, are creating a similar mess!
    Even in Iraq, Saddam waned that once invaders put troops on the ground, they would face “the mother of all battles”! Short-termist wish-thinking said that some sort of “shock and awe”, would magically lead to a utopian democracy!

    Gaddafi, Assad, and even Saddam, were among the more secular rulers of Islamic areas, and were forcefully keeping a lid on the Saudi and Iranian style fanatics, which the West has now “liberated”!

    Realists recognised that the collapse of law and order (even repressive law and order), leads to civil war! – Not the “Arab-Spring” utopia, punted by propagandists and stooge journalists!

    Republicans like Trump like “blunt talk”, because they are not sharp enough to engage in intellectual conversations about the big picture!



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  • Stardusty & David 196899

    Pah! Blood on Christian hands? The next two to three generations may well beat this by a billion litres and more.

    UN predictions of 4.5 billion Africans by 2100 CE on a continent already overstretched and on a daily basis struggling with a mere 1.1 billion, will reap the most terrible carnage unless “The Evil of Latex & Every Child is a Gift from God” is flung back in the Pope’s face.



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  • 17
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    David R Allen

    Instead of carpet bombing Iraq, if America…

    We didn’t carpet bomb Iraq, in the sense of leveling cities. We have that technical capability but even the Bush boys chose not to use it. It is true that in desert storm Saddam had large area troop emplacements out in the desert and we did use area bombing against those military targets, but we did not use massive area bombing of civilians in Iraq.

    But as for the rest of your post it misses my point. If you want to make the point that people calling themselves Christians have done all kinds of terrible things, fine. I can add that the conquest of the Americas was a bloodbath perpetrated by Christians.

    But that is not what Jesus said to do. They were not following the example of Christ.

    Muhammad, by contrast, did explicitly tell IS to do exactly what they are doing. Further, IS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, and all the rest are following the example of Muhammad as documented in the texts.

    The closer you get to what the texts of Jesus actually say the more pacifist you become.

    The closer you get to what the texts of Muhammad actually say the more you practice terrorism, homicide, polygamy, slavery, rape, extortion, theocracy, suicidal jihad, and ever expanding military conquest.

    So what? You might ask. What is the big deal about the texts? The problem with the texts is their widespread availability now, particularly with online sources. We are seeing a regression in religion as large numbers of people no longer depend upon the watered down and sanitized versions taught by clerics.

    Muslims and Christians alike are bypassing clerics in large numbers and going directly to the texts on their own. That is a disaster for the rest of us with Islam because the last words of instruction by Muhammad and his last examples to be emulated are direct instructions to do exactly what the fundamentalists are doing.

    Fundamentalist Muslims are not just pulling this stuff out of thin air. They are reading it in the Qur’an and the Hadith and reenacting Muhammad of the 7th century today.

    Christians who read the admonitions of Jesus and seek to live as he is written to have lived do things like turn the other cheek, love their enemies and pray for their salvation, not throw stones, marry 1 person of the opposite sex, provide assistance to criminals, pay their taxes, and generally conduct themselves in ways I do not consider to be a threat.

    The equivalency delusion needs to be done away with so we can meet the deadly threat of the texts of Islam with eyes wide open.



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  • Stardusty Psyche
    Feb 6, 2016 at 1:32 pm

    But that is not what Jesus said to do. They were not following the example of Christ.

    If we are going to quote “what Jesus said”, we need to bear in mind, that there is no contemporary historical record on anything “he said” – or even that he actually existed.

    All the Bible myths and “gospels” were written at least decades after supposed events, and the final 4 chosen NT gospel versions, put together by Bishop Athanasius and others, for the Romans, in the 4th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_of_Alexandria#New_Testament_canon
    Athanasius is the first person to identify the same 27 books of the New Testament that are in use today.

    Athanasius’s list is similar to the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican Library, probably written in Rome, in 340 by Alexandrian scribes for Emperor Constans



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  • 20
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    Alan4discussion – If we are going to quote “what Jesus said”, we need to bear in mind, that there is no contemporary historical record on anything “he said” – or even that he actually existed.

    Indeed, which is what I meant by “as he is written to have…”

    Christians who read the admonitions of Jesus and seek to live as he is written to have lived

    I just get a little lax sometimes and drop the caveats of questionable historicity of any ancient religious figure, or accuracy of any ancient religious text, so, my bad. Maybe I should put some kind of disclaimer at the top or just bite the bullet and include such caveats every time.

    The functionally important part is what the texts presently say and the fact they are accepted as true by billions of people, irrespective of our skepticism regarding historicity and accuracy.

    According to the texts Jesus preached and provided the lived example of :
    Turn the other cheek, love your enemies and pray for their salvation, do not throw stones, marry 1 person of the opposite sex, eschew wealth, provide assistance to criminals, pay your taxes to Caesar.

    According to the texts Muhammad preached and provided the lived example of :
    Violent terrorism, homicide, robbery, polygamy, slavery, rape, forced impregnation, extortion, theocracy, suicidal jihad, and ever expanding military conquest.

    Sam Harris has opined that it is widely taboo among liberals to notice this difference. Based on this thread I share his lament.



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  • 21
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    Olgun –
    the-quran-experiment

    The texts say Jesus abrogated most of the worst bits. The experiment read from the OT, not the NT.

    Nobody has successfully abrogated the texts of Muhammad. The Ahmadiyya are a persecuted minority sect.

    For the vast majority of Muslims the Qur’an and the Hadith provide the word of Allah verbatim and the perfect example of his prophet. Hence the Islamic State, which is faithfully following and reenacting those texts.



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  • Thank you Phil for reminding me of the millions of Africans who are going to die in the future thanks to the American Taliban and the RCC church breeding Africa into starvation….

    Crickets chirping. That’s the sound of SP condemning the Christians.

    SP might argue that Jesus was all peace an light, therefore the bible trumps the koran, but sadly the American Taliban seems fixated on the Old Testament, you know, the one with all the killing and revelations in the New testament, with Armageddon etc…The rapture. Lets start a war in the middle east because the new testament says we can go to heaven.

    An Eye for an Eye…. I’m getting a bit old now, but I have this vague recollection of a poster in this forum recently using this biblical reference recently as a justification for killing people…

    Christians. Peaceful one day. Lethal the next.



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  • Thank you Phil for reminding me of the millions of Africans who are going to die in the future thanks to the American Taliban and the RCC church breeding Africa into starvation….

    I don’t think you can blame the whole population growth of Africa on the RCC and the US. Africa will go through a population increase as their economy starts to improve just as in other regions. It should start to drop as people realise they don’t need to have all those children, although the RCC won’t be keen on them getting easy access to contraception. The most populous country in Africa is Nigeria – roughly half of them are Muslim and probably don’t take much notice of the pope anyway.



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  • 25
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    David R Allen –
    Thank you Phil for reminding me of the millions of Africans who are going to die in the future thanks to the American Taliban and the RCC church breeding Africa into starvation….

    Do individuals have any responsibility to refrain from unprotected sex? Yes, the church has a harmful stance on birth control, including condoms. But, our supposed “American Taliban” has not been able to do much about Catholics and others who simply ignore those instructions wholesale. Or do you suppose Americans are being stoned to death for their promiscuous behavior?

    I think you suffer from the soft prejudice of low expectations regarding Africans and their ability to make their own decisions, and you cheapen the real sufferings under the real Taliban by your trivialized application of that word to a small bunch of American kooks.

    Yes, we have some very vocal nut jobs here of all sorts. That just comes with the territory of our staunch adherence to free speech.

    Crickets chirping. That’s the sound of SP condemning the Christians.

    I’m not terribly interested in condemning Muslims, Christians, or Jews, but I do find fault with the actions of fundamentalists who use their books in an assertion of divine justification for their destructive acts.

    I have mentioned sardonically that I am wistful for the good old days of doing battle with the YECs to keep their nonsense out of our textbooks. Fortunately, that battle has mostly been won. The Discovery Institute took a smackdown from a Republican appointee in Dover. Public school textbooks teach scientific geology and evolutionary biology.

    SP might argue that Jesus was all peace an light, therefore the bible trumps the koran

    Trumps the Qur’an? Both are false. But the messages are very different. How is that so difficult to see? I often wonder why this presumption of equivalency is so widely held while being so demonstrable false.

    Lets start a war in the middle east because the new testament says we can go to heaven.

    Ok, there probably are a tiny number of Christians who have that kind of apocalyptic war wish, I guess, maybe, I mean, just on statistical principles, not that I have ever heard that view expressed. I am not aware of anything Jesus ever said that instructed any human being to try to somehow bring on the apocalypse because that is to be god’s work, so the story goes.

    Afghanistan and Iraq were not even nuclear powers, so that rationale, of bringing on the apocalypse, is rather far fetched. I never even heard of that. I mean, I have heard of all the usual reasons and excuses, but you are way out on a limb with this bit of conjecture.

    “An Eye for an Eye…. I’m getting a bit old now, but I have this vague recollection of a poster in this forum recently using this biblical reference recently as a justification for killing people…”
    Gee, who could you be vaguely recollecting ?-)

    Actually, others attributed that to me as a source by their own personal inferences absent any actual evidence. I did mention that at that time, some 3400 years ago, an eye for an eye was an advancement in proportionality of response, as opposed to the more traditional response of a life for an eye or a vendetta for an eye. However, Mosaic law retained some rather bizarre elements such as stoning a man to death for gathering sticks on the sabbath.

    The texts of Jesus say something very different, to turn the other cheek, and to give the robber of your coat your shirt as well. So, Jesus abrogated the harsh Mosaic laws with his new message of love and pacifism, although few self described Christians understand that message or even attempt to live it.

    Still, people are increasingly turning away from organized religion, which is a regression of sorts going all the way back to the texts as they are presently formed. In the texts attributed to Jesus, his asserted words and life story, we find a man who never led an army, never attacked or hurt anybody, fed the hungry and healed the sick, while preaching pacifism for Christians.

    Those Muslims who choose to regress to their texts find a polar opposite to the story of Christ. The story of Muhammad is that of a bloody killer, a polygamist who admonished his men to rape and thereby impregnate their captured slaves, an armed robber who killed during his crimes, a warlord who extorted money on pain of death, and a conquering fascistic theocrat who urged the spread by conquest of his vicious religion.

    These are demonstrable facts. It is what the texts say. If you don’t understand these facts then you do not understand the words written in them. It matters because it is important to know the enemy if we are to defeat him.



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  • @SD

    I’m not terribly interested in condemning Muslims, Christians, or Jews, but I do find fault with the actions of fundamentalists who use their books in an assertion of divine justification for their destructive acts.

    This is pretty obvious, you interest that is. From your posts, pointing at one evil, Islam, can I assume you believe that their are no fundamentalists in christianity or judaism. Settlements per chance?

    I was searching for a reference to the US Senate defense budget hearings from a few years ago, when the American general was being questioned, and he said that America didn’t need to spend any more on the budget because the Rapture was imminent. I couldn’t find it, but try searching in Google for “The Rapture is Coming” or similar. See if you can spot any non US web pages. Strange you haven’t heard of these US fundamentalists but down here is Oz they are well known.

    This is pretty typical.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/the_rapture_is_coming.htm

    Anyway, we agree to disagree…. again. I think the recent christian history and all religious atrocities deserves equal condemnation. You don’t. Fair enough. Next topic.



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  • Marktony 196968

    I don’t think you can blame the whole population growth of Africa on the RCC and the US.

    Nor did I. But the RCC are the single most powerful actor with the single most effective lever to pull to ameliorate this. The other religions are often mirroring this “Every Child is a Gift from God” trope. It has been a profoundly shocking experience watching the endless repetitions of it in documentaries on the Community Channel by African women.



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  • Stardusty 196982

    I’ll have none of this Libertarian-type nonsense that everyone, whatever their level of impoverishment and education is a strictly rational actor, fully capable of avoiding the bad advice of religion, etc.. This is often the psychopath bullies’ charter, “No, no, leave them. They know what they are doing.”

    We know from history how vulnerable people are led by others. This site is dedicated to this very problem and the repeated solution is to address impoverishment (inequality), education and in the interim help fend of the worst off the manipulative mind viruses.

    Isn’t this condescending?

    Nope. Improving access to rationality and an ability to think your own thoughts more often should make things better.

    PS SP I am not accusing you of being a Libertarian just the idea. Full rational autonomy is an aspiration, and a necessary moral assumption but not an actual fact.



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  • @ Stardusty

    I don’t know if you have worked out the language needed to back up your dichotomy of explanations or you just don’t see it?

    You keep going back and stating that the scriptures are false to cover your quotes from Jesus as a moral compass and accept that not all people of the christian faith follow it but then quote from the koran and say that all adherents are a whisker away from following them to the letter. You then use them as a ‘fact’ when I have posted links that say only a small fraction of the faith follow the hadith. As I have tried to say before, a clear case of Islamaphobia. Fearing every type of spider though only a hand full are really dangerous. Finding out which ones takes education and understanding so that the harmless can be left alone to function as nature ‘intended’. This silly offering of the written to represent facts can only work if you really ignore the facts, real facts, and has been proved wrong here time after time. I have a lot of possible side effects written on the leaflets that come with my medicines. Should I accept them all to happen? I should not take any if the answer is yes.



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  • Marktony 196991

    Apologies. Reading it again my phrasing entirely suggested as you indicated.

    I should not have said X would happen “unless” the Pope….

    It is a contribution to solving the problem. But I still see as one of the single most important contributions.



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  • 32
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    can I assume you believe that their are no fundamentalists in christianity or judaism. Settlements per chance?

    No, that would be a very poor assumption. Why would you think that?

    Christian fundamentalists do things like lobby for YEC nonsense in school books, protest abortions clinics, and generally preach all kinds of silly nonsense. Fortunately, we have won those battles already, for the most part. On rare occasions a deranged individual will totally miss the pacifist message of Christ and do something like shoot an abortion doctor, but there is no theological basis for that, which is why Christian fundamentalist violence is so limited and sporadic, not a viable movement or military threat to us.

    There are Jewish fundamentalists who use the books attributed to Moses as justification for a deadly war of conquest. They are called Jewish “settlers”. Fortunately, the incitements to genocide found in their holy books are limited geographically to a very small area, most of which they already possess. Not so fortunate if you are a non-Jewish resident of the remainder of the West Bank and Gaza, which the Jewish fundamentalists will almost certainly overrun in time.

    The rapture is coming…Strange you haven’t heard of these US fundamentalists

    That was not your statement, that the rapture is merely believed to be coming. Your statement was

    Lets start a war in the middle east because the new testament says we can go to heaven.

    No, I have never heard a specific individual voice that particular war wish

    Anyway, we agree to disagree…. again

    And again, no, I do not agree to disagree in the sense that we might have arrived at in impasse of personal judgement not subject to rational refutation based on demonstrable facts. I have brought forth clear textual facts to support my assertions, you have not countered my assertions with any valid arguments.



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  • @ Phil

    Dammit, Olgun, have you just used the term “Islamophobia” perfectly,
    just to annoy me?

    Not at all :-)…….I could have made the point long ago had I the language skills to do so. It all works in my brain but expressing it can get the full meaning lost in translation. The only bit of Chekhov I have every read gave me an idea for a Studio Ghibli film when I read the line, “”The wind has broken loose from its chain” said Gusev”. I would love to be able to put it down on ‘paper’ but have not got the skills and I now hear that Ghibli has stopped making films anyway. Now my fantasy is to have them start afresh with my story topping the film charts!!! 🙂



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  • Stardusty Psyche
    Feb 7, 2016 at 10:18 am

    Christian fundamentalists do things like lobby for YEC nonsense in school books, protest abortions clinics, and generally preach all kinds of silly nonsense. Fortunately, we have won those battles already, for the most part.

    They seem to be on-going wherever Xtian fundamentalists have political power, and where they don’t, they will be constantly seeking it!

    http://www.lawofliberty.com/sermons/Resources/soldiersofchristarise.pdf

    On rare occasions a deranged individual will totally miss the pacifist message of Christ and do something like shoot an abortion doctor, but there is no theological basis for that, which is why Christian fundamentalist violence is so limited and sporadic, not a viable movement or military threat to us.

    I think this is an example of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy!

    There is massive damage being done to communities in Africa, while history shows us what ambitious theocrats have done throughout history as conquistadors, in Franco’s Spain, in the Catholic Republic of Ireland, and in the terrorist activities of Northern Ireland!



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  • 35
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    Olgun – a clear case of Islamaphobia

    “Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, & used by cowards, to manipulate morons.”
    Andrew Cummins

    I suggest you search for “Richard Dawkins Islamophobia”. But that would be argument from authority if I merely stated how much the likes of Hitchens, Harris, and Ali disparage that term.

    What is a phobia?
    phobia
    /ˈfōbēə/
    An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something:

    Is fear of fundamentalist Islam irrational? If you are not aware of the violence and widespread subjugation being perpetrated because of this pernicious belief I suggest you are living in a world of idyllic imagination.

    Is it irrational to fear a belief system wherein vast numbers of Muslims think death for apostasy is an appropriate punishment, as well as killing homosexuals, criticizing the prophet and…well, like I said, if you are not aware of the litany of violent ignorance and widespread adherence to it and the prevalence of those willing to put these deplorable beliefs into action … thus your world of idyllic imagination.

    No, my friends, I will not jump down the rabbit hole with the islamoapologists. The threat of fundamentalist Islam is real blood and real enslavement and real rape culture every day. What’s more, for my European friends who, out of naive kindness, have invited large numbers of Muslims into their homelands, it is getting worse.

    But let’s take a closer look at a few of your specific assertions:

    koran and (you) say that all adherents are a whisker away from following them to the letter.

    Please find where I supposedly said that. I really would appreciate quotes as opposed to your strawman mischaracterizations.

    I told you what the texts do in fact say. It is also a fact that large numbers of Muslims follow those texts and read those texts and base their actions in real life on those texts. That is a fact of human behavior, deplorable as we may find it.

    Fearing every type of spider though only a hand full are really dangerous.

    If spiders were invading countries and inciting other spiders to commit organized violence in the West, if spiders were attempting to implement spider law in the west, if spiders were responsible for a human rape crisis, if spiders forced vast numbers of millions of women to live in abject subjugation, if spiders organized to kill critics of the spider god, if spiders were shooting and hacking and kidnapping and blowing people up around the world every day, and if the spiders doing all this harm were physically indistinguishable from other spiders then yes, I would be extremely wary of spiders, and with very good rational reasons.

    It’s not a phobia when a substantial percentage really are poisonous.

    has been proved wrong here time after time.

    What precise assertion of mine has been proved wrong here or even argued against with any validity? Again, I would appreciate a quote in context as opposed to a strawman mischaracterization.



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  • Stardusty 197027

    Myself I mostly loathe the word and the way it is so often used, when they actually mean anti-Muslim bigot or as a misbegotten STF word to someone legitimately criticising some aspect of Islamic ideology or complaining of Islamism.

    But in this case I believe Olgun has used it correctly and in its one very specific legitimate meaning. I believe you are being phobic about Islam qua Islam and its uniquely “spooky” power.



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  • “Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, & used by cowards, to
    manipulate morons.” Andrew Cummins

    I suggest you search for “Richard Dawkins Islamophobia”. But that
    would be argument from authority if I merely stated how much the likes
    of Hitchens, Harris, and Ali disparage that term.

    And I disagree with them! It sometimes takes time for people to accept some ailments are indeed just that and not a made up illness, like dyslexia for example.. You are one that proves the point.

    The rest of your listed examples are a mix of what they are doing to themselves being used to justify what a small proportion are doing to you. You lump them in in an attempt to up the numbers to the “vast majority”, when your argument is your fear of being attacked. Only some spiders bite and even fewer have venom to kill.

    The refugee problem was not only started by the west and Russia but the lack of recognition, head in the sand, has brought us rapes and a super underclass of our own making. To see people with children walking thousands of miles in this day and age should make us hang our heads in shame. No transport or organisation. No educating the people who have never been to the west and have ideas of western women that they do not understand. Rape is rape, don’t get me wrong but just a civilised introduction would have been a good thing to do. Marching to get sharia law is not the same as having it, in the UK that is. Another false accusation to boost numbers for your purposes.



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  • Olgun

    “”The wind has broken loose from its chain” said Gusev”.

    Miyazaki-perfect.

    Sadly Miyazaki (pere) has potted his brushes for the last time and Miyazaki (fils) has done two okayish films, but they need to have a script that can match their biggest commercial winner Spirited Away. The Studio is dark until then. Toshio Suzuki most probably will lead it then if they find the script.

    If you had an idea Nick Park at Aardman is the one to impress first. He could get you in to Suzuki.



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  • No educating the people who have never been to the west and have ideas of western women that they do not understand. Rape is rape, don’t get me wrong but just a civilised introduction would have been a good thing to do.

    What ideas do they have of western women? What is this civilised introduction you are suggesting? Should adult male refugees be instructed on how it is unacceptable to mug and sexually assault women in western countries?



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  • What’s more, for my European friends who, out of naive kindness, have invited large numbers of Muslims into their homelands, it is getting worse.

    Primitive stone age fear of the other is alive and well in 2016. It takes a disciplined act of intellectual rigour to over come an evolutionary predisposition to view all “Others” as a threat. Some are capable, and some are clearly not.



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  • Marktony 197049

    Such education is entirely what has been put in place in some Scandinavian countries. I was listening to accounts of it including interviews with the men and their uninformed views of an utterly novel society. A lack of outside experience is not a shame. Learning but not changing is the shame.

    They (many of them) would of course mistake female western casual dress as provocative and “signalling”. They are also utterly suppressing of their wives’ newly granted freedoms. The illegality of this comes as a shock to them.

    Such knowledge isn’t going to appear in their heads otherwise…nor their wives’ (if they are married).



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  • Hi, fellas,

    I’ve been skimming through this thread and have the impression that there is some difference of opinion concerning the word “Islamophobia.” I like what Olgun said about fearing all spiders and being afraid to take a certain medication because a small percentage of patients had, say, internal bleeding.

    I would add that the word phobia implies excess. If one were to make a compelling case that Islam is to be feared in itself (and I do not think it should) then the words to be used in that context would be simply fear of Islam. I myself have a reasonable fear (as opposed to a phobia) of all religions. — I fear for the inculcated children, I fear that which is educationally pernicious, and I fear the religious right in America. But I don’t equate Islam itself with violent extremism. To do so would lead to Islamophobia.

    Let me also remind you all of Plato’s fine yet imperfect definition of bravery (the opposite of fear): the brave man and woman is able to distinguish between what one should fear and what one shouldn’t fear. (Republic)

    Islamophobia is eo ipso an expression of poor judgment and a form of cowardice.



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  • @ Bonnie 197053

    “I’m talky Fatima and you’d better be nice to me.”

    Talky Fatima, the doll that does everything, a lifelike creation of plastic and springs and painted smile. To Mahmoud Ali, she is a most unwelcome addition to his household – but without her, he’d never enter The Twilight Zone.

    (Your Twilight Zone comments are better, funnier. I tried.)



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  • 45
    bonnie says:

    talky Fatima

    Ah yes, ‘Tina’.

    ‘Muslim Barbie’, in real life, is garnering negative feedback. (I’m well aware of arguments for / against hijab).



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  • 46
    Stardusty Psyche says:

    SP – “Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, & used by cowards, to
    manipulate morons.” Andrew Cummins
    I suggest you search for “Richard Dawkins Islamophobia”. But that
    would be argument from authority if I merely stated how much the likes
    of Hitchens, Harris, and Ali disparage that term.

    Olgun – And I disagree with them!

    OK, fair enough, an argument must stand on the merits, not the name attached to it.

    Olgun – The rest of your listed examples are a mix of what they are doing to themselves being used to justify what a small proportion are doing to you.

    No, I am not listing what fundamentalists are doing to themselves, I am listing what fundamentalists are doing to those they presently draw a bead on, including we in the West.

    Jews have learned an important lesson, when somebody says they want to kill you, believe them. Also, don’t wait until they are actively shooting you down, rather, stop them before they have the chance to execute their diabolical desires.

    Olgun – You lump them in in an attempt to up the numbers to the “vast majority”, when your argument is your fear of being attacked. Only some spiders bite and even fewer have venom to kill.

    No, I did not say “vast majority”, I said “vast numbers”. My statements are accurate as stated, your mischaracterization is yet another one of your straw men. I suggest you look at the polling data. The hundreds of millions of Muslims who support death as punishment for non-crimes should be a concern to you unless you just don’t care what they do “to themselves” (as though killing apostates, women, and homosexuals is some kind of self harm) and you think you can somehow remain safe in isolation indefinitely.

    Olgun – The refugee problem was not only started by the west

    Wrong. The West liberated Iraq and we were greeted as liberators in the streets. The people cheered as we tore down the statue of Saddam. The Kurds were at long last able to establish their own semi-autonomous government free from fears of genocide from the central government. Women and men voted in free elections for the first time in their lives.

    What created the refugee crisis was religious warfare. The Iraqi government asked us to leave after we handed them a chance at freedom on a silver platter. We did not steal the oil. We did not permanently occupy Iraq. We left.

    But large numbers of Muslims are still arguing about who should have succeeded Muhammad 1300 years ago. They each consider the other apostates and that carries the death penalty.

    Catholics and Protestants used to fight terrible bloody wars. That was the fault of the Catholics and the Protestants. But Christianity grew up. Islam has not.

    Olgun – has brought us rapes and a super underclass of our own making

    I will not join you in your self-flagellating. No, Islam has within itself a rape culture. Taharrush wasn’t invented by the West, it is part of Islamic rape culture, and Europeans are now suffering from it because of large numbers of Muslim immigrants who bring their rape culture with them.

    In fundamentalist Islam women who don’t cover themselves are whores and deserve to be harassed and raped. This is an attitude indigenous to vast numbers of Muslim men in Muslim majority countries and they are bringing that pre-existing rape culture with them to Europe.

    Olgun – Marching to get sharia law is not the same as having it,

    Numbers. Europe will commit cultural suicide by numbers if it does not put a halt to mass Muslim immigration, and very quickly. Those marches get bigger and bigger with increasing numbers. European populations are small, some under 10 million. When the marchers for sharia become the majority you can kiss your freedoms goodbye, especially in countries that lack a strong constitution and make supreme law in Parliament.



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