Free Speech and Islam — In Defense of Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jun 20, 2016

By Jeffrey Tayler

True progressives really should get around to constructing a Doric-columned Hall of Shame to memorialize, for all to revile, the imbecilities, curios of casual hypocrisy, and artifacts of outright intellectual and moral treason the benighted diehards of the regressive left choose to display as a matter of pride these days when the subject is Islam and former Muslims, especially former female Muslims.  The contrast between the lofty liberal ideals espoused by such leftists and their sordid output should concern us all, though, of whatever political persuasion.  They have largely succeeded in squelching forthright, reasoned discourse about Islam and Islamist terrorism, which jeopardizes national security and the lives of some of some of the most vulnerable, including women who have left the faith, or who, rightfully or wrongfully, are accused of disrespecting it.  For in de facto alliance with regressive leftist denouncers of “Islamophobia” — a semantic swindle of a noun equating criticism of Islam with bigotry against Muslims as people — stand assassins, as the late Elsa Cayat of Charlie Hebdo, the late Farkhunda Malikzada of Afghanistan, and countless victims of honor killings would attest, were they still alive.

That this is no laughing matter has not stopped regressive leftists from doing their utmost to look ridiculous, if in a sinister sort of way.  In attempting to discourage criticism of Islam — a faith they mostly do not profess — they de facto defend the right of one group of humans to oppress another group on the basis of their religion.  Their talent for tragicomic perfidy shines through most clearly in their prodigious efforts to take down one woman in particular — a woman whose life story, by any rational, humane standards, should win encomia from, and the admiration of, decent people everywhere — the courageous, Somali-born author, human rights activist, and public intellectual Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

In the space of four decades, Hirsi Ali suffered genital mutilation, donned the hijab and joined the Muslim Brotherhood, escaped a forced marriage and fled Africa for Holland, mastered Dutch and earned a graduate degree from a prestigious university, abandoned Islam after the 9/11 attacks awakened her intellectually, got herself elected to the Dutch parliament, publicly denounced the abuse suffered by immigrant Muslim women in Holland, wrote the screenplay for a short film about misogyny in Islam (for which its director, Theo van Gogh, was murdered by an Islamist in Amsterdam and for which his killer condemned her to death as well), found herself (following controversy over her asylum status) immigrating, in 2006, to the United States (where she was welcomed by Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick as a “very courageous and impressive woman”), and established a foundation to protect women from honor killings and aid women’s development globally.  She is now a fellow at Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government.  Death threats have shadowed her since 2002, when she first started speaking out against Islam, and even today she requires round-the-clock armed guards.  Yet, undaunted, she continues to write, publish, and make her voice heard about the faith she once professed so fervently, but left for atheism and the values of the Enlightenment.


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50 comments on “Free Speech and Islam — In Defense of Ayaan Hirsi Ali

  • Just one point.

    Muslims as people

    Muslim just means “a follower of Islam.” So why do we call all one billion of these people by their religious preferences? Analogous to calling all of South America catholic because most of them are catholic. If I want to talk about Brazil I don’t say “catholics” I say Bazillions do this, that and the other thing. Why not talk about Egyptians, Saudi Arabians, Iraqis and so on without resorting to the catch all term “muslim?”



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  • @OP – That this is no laughing matter has not stopped regressive leftists from doing their utmost to look ridiculous, if in a sinister sort of way. In attempting to discourage criticism of Islam — a faith they mostly do not profess — they de facto defend the right of one group of humans to oppress another group on the basis of their religion.

    While in a similar way to the loony left, we have Christians who also play the “No True Scotsman card” for Islam, on behalf of “inter-faith co-operation”, on the basis of promoting their shared “uncritical faith-thinking”, and against the inroads of reason which debunks dogmas and recognises conflicting religious claims!



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  • A.H.A. ——-Pure Class and Pure Grace. Her great story, I think, will become greater still. A living legend whose life and times perhaps best defines the early beginnings of what will become known as
    the Atheist-Humanist era of Civilization.



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  • NeoD

    So why do we call all one billion of these people by their religious preferences?

    They self identify as Muslim.

    Muslim just means “a follower of Islam.”

    So you are not a supporter of her new plan to indefinitely dilute this and encourage a cultural Muslim status? A project that will allow families to stay together whilst dogma dribbles away under the kitchen door?



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  • Neodarwinian @ # 2.

    Good question. I think the answer is that Islam more than any other religion is all-encompassing; it dominates the lives of it followers.

    I think I’m right in saying that the word Islam in Arabic or Aramaic, means submit; submit to the will of God; entirely!

    It is also distinct in demanding that its brethren put it before all else: nation, language, and even sometimes family. They are first and foremost Muslim, and demand to be thought of as such. Everything else in their lives is subordinate to that.

    And I think all that is expressed in the sheer ferocity of Muslim sectarianism.

    So, perhaps in the twenty first century the doctrines of this particular religion have led to more and more of the followers of Islam becoming, or feeling themselves to be, set apart from other cultures.

    And if that is the case, maybe they feel increasingly alienated and threatened.

    All this is supposition, and as always, I stand to be corrected.



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  • @phil rimmer

    See Stafford Gordon’s answer.

    To your point. I self identify as a Dinohyus but nobody seems to acknowledge that or care.

    http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/mesozoicmammals/p/daeodon.htm

    So why do we call all one billion of these people by their religious preferences?

    I asked why we do it, not what they identify as. That is their big problem, instead of following a religion they are a religion.

    So you are not a supporter of her new plan to indefinitely dilute this and encourage a cultural Muslim status? A project that will allow families to stay together whilst dogma dribbles away under the kitchen door?

    That was outside the purview of my question. If they become culturally muslim as I am culturally christian then we have no problem. Islam is one tough ideological nut to crack. Ayaan Hirsi Ali does not need my support here but the support of the ubiquitous ( so we are told ) moderate muslim. ( of whatever nationality, group or population )



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  • NeoD

    I agree with Stafford.

    I would alternately offer that sharia law being ideologically pre-eminent over national laws somehow in many of their minds defines them as a people. We merely call them what they want to be called. We do it out of courtesy..(.but not respect from many of us.) The root question needed was indeed why do they wish to so identify.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali does not need my support here

    Oh, she really, really, does. Too many folk are insistent about the meaning of Muslim you highlighted…a follower of Islam fullstop. Too many Atheists are backing Muslims up to a semantic cliff and asking for Muslims to jump off. Only the bright and the brave will do it. The rest need encouragement and praise for small steps down whilst insisting to mother bitch and uncle bully that, of course they’re still Muslim. Growing Muslim identity into positive history and achievement and seeding the Renaissance needs talking up from all of us. I often flatter to plant an image that yet has to be lived up to, you agreeable scamp you.

    No one pretends moderate Muslims are ubiquitous. There are some encouraging national clusters. The UK has huge problems with Saudi money going into Pakistani madrassas. The plan is only for improvement, however bad the local situation is. The timescale indefinite.

    Plenty of other plans need implementing too, like porous communities.



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  • For in de facto alliance with regressive leftist
    The contrast between the lofty liberal ideals espoused by such leftists and their sordid output
    intellectual and moral treason the benighted diehards of the regressive left
    turncoat pseudo-liberals

    That’s from only the first few paragraphs! Sneering, and name calling is the least productive form of “argument.” I don’t know anyone from my rather large circle of lefty friends who refrains from criticising Islam. I do know many people from the left who would never dream of being impolite to a Muslim, or harassing them for their garb. Just who are these liberal lefties, and how can someone be both liberal and leftie at the same time? What do you have to think and do to earn the favourite clichéd labels of the neo-con right?

    Would Jeffrey Tayler please give a list of people who are left, liberal and protective of Islamic belief, doctrine and practice? I suspect that it might be a rather short list, if it were independently examined for accuracy and precision. Under the guise of defending reason and the Enlightenment (what were the C18 thinkers if not liberals?), he indulges in another unfounded tirade of Fox News-style claptrap, in which vilifies unidentified, probably non-existent people, as surrogates for those responsible people who seek a rational and humane politics. That’s the gallery played to by Donald Trump and Nigel Farrage.



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  • @eejit

    A bit of a difference between the left and liberal. I am a classical liberal but certainly not of the left.

    a list of people on the left defending islam

    Put that in your address bar and go searching for names beyond a few.

    To compare this tirade to Fox News claptrap is too smear many critics of islam.



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  • They exist, eejit. I’ve met them. They tend to be hyper pro social and feel pain for the underdog in front of them and forget the underdog out of sight.

    We’ve encountered them many times here. They constitute the like of PZ Myers and Atheist plus. They are the feminist and LGBT groups supporting the silencing tactics of the Muslim society of Maryam Namazie at Goldsmiths to give a talk about the sexism of Islam. So many muddled over-emotive heads.



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  • @phil rimmer

    small steps down

    Not sure about that Phil. Islam ( and muslims ) need a revolution of titanic proportions. I don’t think we have the time for a gradual Enlightenment here. One nuclear weapon in the hands of a theocratic nut job may be time out for us all.

    Regardless, even if some radical nut job does not get a nuclear weapon how many more Orlando’s will we take before the retaliation becomes a conflagration?

    Too many muslims have large investments in theocracy for them to just turn the state over to secular authorities. This applies at the local, family, level also.

    What is that North African country that actually may be going secular after the Arab spring? That country is far from the Arab heartland but perhaps they can start something from the fringe that “infects” the whole of the muslim world.



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  • NeoD

    So Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s revised policy is a step backwards for you?

    All levers need be pulled. Cultures can and do turn on a dime with generational change and an approached tipping point. We see this all the time.

    Besides scraping past the iceberg is better than hitting it square on. And whatever the outcome we can plan for a better aftermath now.



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  • NeoD

    how many more Orlando’s will we take before the retaliation becomes a conflagration?

    All the more reason not to side with the fatuously terrorised, but ask them to grow up, prioritise, work steadily.



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  • @phil rimmer

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2016/06/why-some-evangelicals-changed-their-minds-about-evolution/

    A better example of an ideology that is slowly changing. ( except for that ridiculous linear depiction of human evolution ) This is a culture turning, though more on a half dollar than a dime!

    So Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s revised policy is a step backwards for you?

    No, she can do her thing but we will see in time if it is a step forward.

    Besides scraping past the iceberg is better than hitting it square on. And whatever the outcome we can plan for a better aftermath now.

    Tell that to the Titanic! If they had hit that iceberg head on they may not have sunk as the sideswipe tore open too many watertight compartments. See if you can apply that analogy to our muslim situation.

    All the more reason not to side with the fatuously terrorized, but ask them to grow up, prioritize, work steadily.

    No one has to side with anything Phil to see things fuck up totally. Fortunately the “fatuously terrorized” are held in check, for the moment. Imagine a Trump presidency though.

    Well I’ll get back to this later. Dinner and dog walking calls.



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  • NeoD

    Darn the Titanic metaphor really doesn’t work, does it? Fortunately, societies aren’t actually built like floating sardine cans peeled open. Mitigation is a thing.

    Hirsi Ali’s approach is being taken up by more and more, (Nawaz, Namazie, Harris) as a useful supplement, especially as we find takers within Muslim societies.

    One sides with the terrorised when one is happy to heap an act on the canon of terror without understanding its particularities, call for impossible and/or disproportionate actions and express terror. Sometimes we here do this. But I have to agree with you that the terrorised have me shit scared (and for me) more than the terrorists.

    Dinner and dog walking calls.

    Thats why I need a dog.



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  • That’s why I need a dog.

    That just entered my thinking. Many countries/peoples in the muslim sphere think dogs are unclean or something ( keeping them outside). I would always have a bias against such thinking, hidden or not, because my dog(s) is/are my world. It is inconceivable to me that for whatever reason dogs are proscribed. Even the little dog I have now is dog loyal (perhaps not on to the death ). A person who can not appreciate that I would have trouble trusting.

    Adapt from your local shelter Phil.



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  • @eejit,

    Would Jeffrey Tayler please give a list of people who are left, liberal and protective of Islamic belief, doctrine and practice?

    He’s given a list of people of the left criticizing a victim of Islamic, practice and doctrine who they are trying to cull out of the debate even though she is more qualified to comment than they. Are you suggesting he shouldn’t point this out?

    We cannot be so careful that we create either a victim mentality where blame and responsibility is not everyones role to maintain and just one group is demonised and shut out of the discussion. Unfortunately many on the left will not tolerate criticism of Islam. This needs to be called out as much as criticism of racists like Donald Trump who would have rejected the likes of Hirsi Ali.



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  • @neodawin,

    One nuclear weapon in the hands of a theocratic nut job may be time out for us all.

    I’m far from certain about what follows so please consider this a question,
    Would that would depend where it was deployed?

    If it was deployed against Israel, I suspect it would be unlikely that the West would bomb Russia and China for example. Or if Pakistan dropped a bomb on India. There might be an issue in the event of a bomb being set off in New York, but even then given the current level of threat from Islamic terrorism at this moment in history would most Western countries pause before launching against Russia or China?

    When I was growing up every TV show or movie I saw which had terrorists depicted IRA terrorists, today it is Islam. I suspect most people today (and governments) would assume (I think) that if a mushroom cloud appeared in a major Western city that it was in fact Islamic fundamentalists, not the Russians to blame.



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  • phil rimmer, #11: They tend to be hyper pro social and feel pain for the underdog in front of them and forget the underdog out of sight.

    “Bleeding hearts:” another favourite neo-con sneer, but a bleeding heart don’t make you left wing. A bleeding heart is more related to overactive moral compass, excessive empathy and an inability to understand political reality, in short it is romanticism run riot.

    Being left wing implies a knowledge of politics, economics and social philosophy, and a realisation that great concentrations of wealth and power are dangerous. Being left also implies a commitment to political action and solutions, that is it implies a commitment to state and social power, ultimately exercising restraining power over markets and economic elites in the interests of financial fairness and social equality. It does not imply a commitment to support the recessive moral prejudices of religious or ideological groups.
    The great, certainly left wing, and very underrated Australian poet Mary Gilmore put the issues succinctly:

    Nationality

    I have grown past hate and bitterness,
    I see the world as one;
    But though I can no longer hate,
    My son is still my son.

    All men at God’s round table sit,
    And all men must be fed;
    But this loaf in my hand,
    This loaf is my son’s bread.

    Reckless Monkey, #19: He’s given a list of people of the left criticizing a victim of Islamic, practice and doctrine who they are trying to cull out of the debate even though she is more qualified to comment than they. Are you suggesting he shouldn’t point this out?

    Yes, but he calls everyone he doesn’t like left-liberal. What right does he have to label them to be either, particularly since being both is logically incompatible? What are their credentials for being considered either? It’s too trite a cliché to slap on someone, it’s an Aunt Sally, set up to discredit two centuries of intellectual effort and a vast array of contemporary scholarship and research.



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  • eejit

    These folks self describe as leftist most usually. I am with Jonathan Haidt and believe this left right division is about character and an emotional moral aesthetic. My aesthetic is definitely to the left, but I hope it is utterly tempered by reason and evidence. I am for social progress and change to find an even more effective mutuality. My moral concerns are for fairness and the harms done to others. Those on the right are more concerned with the loss of social capital through neglect and willfulness. They are the more anxious . They have the same concerns of fairness and harms amongst their moral aesthetics but these are rather diluted by the added concerns of loyalty, subjection to authority, and purity of institutions. (These latter make sense at times of threat.)

    The problem is that reason plays no part in this divide as such. A concern for mutuality…harms and fairness… depends on you reliably identifying these things. Empathy often screws up. It is mainly a visceral reaction using a bunch of simplistic heuristics, like tone of voice, toxic word use, that is then followed by an automatic imputation of malice on the visible “aggressor”.

    Even in these pages we are beset on occasions by folk reading the apparent tone rather than the reliable content.



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  • phil rimmer, #22: Even in these pages we are beset on occasions by folk reading the apparent tone rather than the reliable content.

    Just so Phil, and most of us on this site try hard to stick to reason, balance and politeness, both to each other and to those who don’t share our views. Regrettably these values sometimes slip, particularly when discussing ideas which are very foreign to our own. But the purblind venom oozing from the snippets I posted at #9, could not easily be ascribed to gauche tone or poor command of acceptable vocabulary.



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  • eejit #23

    Sadly, eejit, I have to agree with the OP that the regressive left (not the best term) are often a moral catastrophe for their failure to understand their own intellectual failure, by going with visceral. Empathy is just an evolutionary kick starter for cultural sympathy, its reasoned and steady counterpart. It is important for them as emoters in the main to be communicated with in a way they may register. I know I have failed dismally to connect with them and to warn others about their immorality when doing it reasonably and with evidence.



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  • phil rimmer #24

    Ah well Phil, I suppose that we can take it no further on that front. Even conceding that the nincompoops about whom Tayler appears to be writing might bear some distant relationship to the left, that’s no grounds on which to base his attack. By use of the sneering pejorative terms listed in #9, he manages to condemn all those of the left, without actually specifying any concrete groups or individuals, much less establishing that they connect to anything which may be considered as “left.”



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  • phil

    I know I have failed dismally to connect with them and to warn others about their immorality when doing it reasonably and with evidence.

    I feel that too. Trying to figure it out. I think I was blindsided and lost much time in responding correctly.

    regressive left (not the best term

    Do you have an idea for a better term? This is not a challenge, just if there is a better term out there I’d be interested in adopting it. I’ll bet you have one.



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  • I’m so self servingly happy to know that AHA is now employed by Harvard U. just down the street from me. I happily imagine bumping into her in Harvard square and inviting her for lunch. (expression of a selfish fantasy. so sue me!!!)



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  • eejit

    he manages to condemn all those of the left,

    I, for one, didn’t feel that at all. I’m of the left (hardwired so) but with my history, posting mostly elsewhere, I came to learn of this identifiable syndrome and so was well prepared for that familiar exasperation.

    I have proposed other terms for it, than regressive left.

    Laurie

    Before I knew it as a cultural thing I wrote a lot about the Hyper Pro Social those outliers at the other end of the empathy bell curve to the asocial and antisocial, those with an over developed sense of empathy, oxytocin fueled, which normally makes a mother fierce about the least threat to her own (Oxytocin has a dark side in creating bonded in-groups and reviled out-groups.)

    Empathy is good but what if you have it to excess? What if you over-read the harms of those in front of you? What if it pulls things out of balance from those harmed but more distant in mirror neuron terms? What if this intuiting just gets wonky? Nicholas Epley in Mindwise shows us we mostly read the minds of others wrongly and just above chance. These super emoters may simply be super wrong rather than super insightful.

    I prefer to call them Hyper Pro Social and I persisted in this for a time until incomprehension (more than usual) forced me to go with the common flow. Like bad term “Islamophobia” it takes a high profile hitter like Hemant Mehta coming to his senses to flip a useful number of people into better usage. Nawaz’s usage of “anti Muslim bigot” tells me his political thinking is nuanced.

    With the fault being at that end of the bell curve the harms and fairness moral aesthetics will be to the fore and the Hyper Pro Socials will almost inevitably identify with the left. Perhaps like difficult children with social problems we should euphemise. Not the Regressive Left, but the Special Left. PZ Myers is…er… Special, poor love.



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  • Special Left.

    😀

    Empathy is good but what if you have it to excess?

    Five years ago if you posed this question to me I’d have snorted and scoffed. Not possible! Not valid! Now I humbly hang my head and slump away.



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  • eejit, I neglected to say how extensive this thinking has become on the left. I think it is not unrelated to the development of micro-victimhoods and first-world anxieties among the young that we discussed a few threads ago. (I feel a bigger thesis coming on…) It is a creeping menace. It is current a disgrace in the UK the racist sentiments being expressed by working class labour supporters in the referendum vox pops. Brothers together?…my arse…



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  • To extremists, both speech and song are taboo!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36597498

    One of Pakistan’s most famous singers, Amjad Sabri, has been shot dead in the southern city of Karachi.

    Two gunmen fired on his car in the busy Liaqatabad area, police said. Sabri died on his way to hospital.

    The Pakistani Taliban has told the BBC it carried out the attack.

    Sabri was a leading exponent of Sufi devotional music, known as Qawwali. Sufism, a tolerant, mystical practice of Islam, has millions of followers in Pakistan but is opposed by extremists.

    The Taliban, who view Sufism as heretical, have been blamed for previous assaults on targets linked to Sufi Islam.

    But there have been no such attacks in the past couple of years, the BBC’s M Ilyas Khan in Islamabad reports.

    Sabri, who was among the sub-continent’s top Qawwali singers, was hit by five bullets, police said. Another person, thought to be a relative, was wounded in the shooting and is said to be in a critical condition.

    “It was a targeted killing and an act of terrorism,” a senior police officer, Muqaddas Haider, was quoted by AFP news agency as saying.

    Karachi has been under a military operation for more than three years, but the gunmen have shown they can still hit their targets at will.

    Amjad Sabri came from a family which traces its musical links to the 17th Century court of India’s Mughal empire. The family adheres to the Sabiriyah branch of Sufi Islam, hence the name Sabri. It migrated to Pakistan when India was divided in 1947, and has been based since then in Karachi.

    The band led by Amjad’s father, Ghulam Farid Sabri, dominated the Qawwali scene in India and Pakistan during the 1970s and 80s. Amjad himself was considered a great performer who produced both traditional and commercial music and also sang for movie soundtracks in India and Pakistan.

    He apparently presented a soft target with a wider shock value.

    A blasphemy case was filed against Sabri last year after he mentioned members of the Prophet Muhammad’s family in a song.

    It is not known if the shooting is related to that incident.



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  • @ eejit,

    Yes, but he calls everyone he doesn’t like left-liberal.

    Better to say everyone he disagrees with on this issue. Like others on the left I find this resonates with me also, not because I’m a xenophobic bigot, but because I’m sick of my end of the political spectrum going beyond not addressing the elephant in the room ‘that in this case there are problems with the basic tenets of Islam that need looking into at the moment’ to actually attacking those on the left who do say something about this. We can argue about semantics if you like I frankly don’t care what we call each other provided we can have the war on ideas in conversation, in articles and speeches because if we don’t then the conflict will continue to have more serious consequences.

    What right does he have to label them to be either, particularly since being both is logically incompatible?

    Same right as everyone else to express free speech. What qualifications does he need to defend an apostate who lives under a death sentence from a bunch of fanatics expressing her concerns about the culture and religion that oppressed her?

    What are their credentials for being considered either? It’s too trite a cliché to slap on someone, it’s an Aunt Sally, set up to discredit two centuries of intellectual effort and a vast array of contemporary scholarship and research.

    I’d argue that the regressive left are doing a great job of undermining the hard won freedoms of past 2 centuries all on their own, its people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali that are defending it.

    edit: In fairness eejit you haven’t claimed he cannot make these criticisms – re-reading your response one last time, however its unclear if you are just concerned about labels or you are concerned about the criticism he is making in general.



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  • Reckless Monkey, #33: just concerned about labels or you are concerned about the criticism he is making in general.

    Really I’m just concerned that in the less cerebral branches of the media and academe, in what passes for debate in the broad universe of popular discourse, derisive mocking, cliché and deceitful scorn have entirely replaced discussion and inquiry.

    I suppose that I’m out of time, but the picture these techniques paint of the left, is very far from my own experience.



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  • @eejit

    Really I’m just concerned that in the less cerebral branches of the media and academe, in what passes for debate in the broad universe of popular discourse, derisive mocking, cliché and deceitful scorn have entirely replaced discussion and inquiry.

    fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

    regards



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  • Its nice to see that AHA has moved on from this 2010 position where she equated Islam as necessarily being its religious texts.

    A religion is what its adherents believe it to be.



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  • 41
    Pinball1970 says:

    @phil

    Yes if the texts were different in any way the religion would be different.

    Youre really pissed about Brexit I can tell, if you dont want to elaborate thats fine.



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  • I apologise for reposting this. But the understanding that religion is in the hands of its adherents when it can overcome the bully shamans, is why it has always evolved, schismed, and fragmented and why these two now see a way of making it tractable, by offering other simply human voices to the bully shaman voices.

    EDIT to remove duplicate link.

    Brexit? You won’t believe how angry I am. The loss of a common market of that size is economically disastrous.

    Big long list here…



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  • 44
    Pinball1970 says:

    @43 you cant be angry at the result of a democratic vote, Sad disappointed maybe? Try not to be angry. You will get over it and you will help rebuild what we need to continue as a global power in the best way you can.
    Anyway there is another thread for that.
    Re religion.Ok I see what you mean now, what I was getting at is, If I criticise religion the best place to start is with the book. Especially with Islam because there is no one authority like there is with Catholicism.
    The book is the basis.



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  • PB

    I went for the book with my born again Muslim sister. I didn’t realise but I told her something she didn’t know and wasn’t doing. That meant she could never enjoy a prawn cocktail ever again. I defined what she should be doing.



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  • 46
    Pinball1970 says:

    @45 “That meant she could never enjoy a prawn cocktail ever again. I defined what she should be doing.”

    But if she would have read the correct sura regarding prawns and haram dressings should would not have had that problem in the first place.



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  • PB

    I agree but this is the reality. Many have not got a clue. Many drink alcohol. They know they shouldn’t but can never point to the page that tells them they shouldn’t. Interpretations are many. If we tell them what they should be, as Muslims, isn’t that our interpretation and we might as well don the cloths and become an imam. I much prefer telling them about science. Make them doubt themselves a bit at a time. Even if they tell you you are talking rubbish, the seed has been sown. I don’t want them to retreat into themselves to prove to me they are a better Muslim than I think they are.



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  • 48
    Pinball1970 says:

    @olli
    Yes non muslims wont convince muslims of anything ex muslims might.
    Outlining all these different versions/interpretations of the Koran is a good first step.
    RD said his epiphany was hearing about other religions then evolutionary theory finally killed it off



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  • Pin #44

    Re: religion…no probs. But, the book is the book and the extollers say differing things. Sufis aren’t Sunni aren’t Shia aren’t my mate at the corner shop. The extollers are always where to start. No one reads the book unless made to. No one knows WTF to think about it until told or bullied to…

    Re: t’other. Sauvignon Blanc has dulled the pain, briefly. But you really really seem to have no concept of the wasted tens of billions of investment in a market whose cost of access has just gone up for no good reason,….. for some advantage that we could have had any number of other ways.



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