Why Christians Overwhelmingly Backed Trump

Nov 9, 2016

By Olga Khazan

After the release of a video in which President-elect Donald Trump said he felt he could grab women’s genitals with impunity, many thought for sure two of his supporter contingents would abandon him: conservative women and Christians.

Instead, last night, both stuck by him.

Trump won over 53 percent of white women, to Clinton’s 43 percent, according to CBS, and he did about as well among white, Republican women as among white, Republican men.


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125 comments on “Why Christians Overwhelmingly Backed Trump

  • @OP- link – Richard Land, president of Southern Evangelical Seminary and part of Trump’s evangelical advisory committee, “believes evangelicals were motivated to vote in unprecedented numbers because of Hillary Clinton’s record on abortion,” according to the Huffington Post.

    So the world has to face a climate disaster, because the ignorant and deluded don’t like abortion!

    .. or because Republican “badge voters”, don’t care what Republican candidates say as long as they pander to big-business, the Xtian right and the gun-lobby!



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  • I think it’s even deeper than that. Trump didn’t have to pander to anyone and I’m sure most of the Xtians realise perfectly well he’s an atheist. They would have voted Republican if the candidate had been a chest-burster from the Alien movies. It made no difference. Watching the satirical shows (Samantha Bee, John Oliver etc) send interviewers to Trump rallies explained some of it. The contortions these people were prepared to go through to rationalise why they still supported Trump was mind boggling. One woman admitted her husband, kids, colleagues didn’t talk about women like Trump but she could write it off as just locker room talk when he did. Another woman said that god can use even bad people to do his work for him.

    In these people’s minds the Republican party is god’s party and there’s is not to question why god moves in such mysterious ways so as to cause someone like Trump to win the nomination. He might say and do bad things all the time but god must have a reason.

    This is why me, the pundits, most of the world’s rational people could never have predicted this result because rationality doesn’t come into it.



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  • Here’s the thing. I support no one in politics. I am glad that Hillary lost, because a person of her caliber does NOT deserve to be remembered by history as “the one” who shattered our “glass ceiling”. She is dogshit and the proof that i am right is that she LOST to dogshit.

    Having said that, I am sad that Trump won. He is a hack and a political lightweight who sets the US up for a catastrophic fall. He is dogshit and the proof is that he narrowly defeated the other dogshit candidate.

    I assert that the President of the US has little to to sway in the lives of the everyday citizen and that your local school board is much much more influential in your daily lives. They levy your property tax and they decide your kids’ curriculum.

    Now, the reason that the Christians are ok with Trump is that he is the Republican candidate. The are more than willing to overlook his faults and emphasize his strengths. The democrats are busy doing the same thing; downplaying Hillary’s faults while focusing on her strengths.

    The truth of the matter is that a strong Republican would have blown dogshit Hillary out of the water AND a strong democrat would have blown dogshit Trump out of the water.

    What we are seeing here has a clear parallel to Stockholm syndrome.

    The Republican party has the evangelical religious people imprisoned and they’ve grown enamored of their captors. The captors can do no wrong and it doesn’t actually matter that the captor (in this case) forcibly demonstrates behavior that is contrary to everything that they supposedly stand for.

    BTW, he is almost definitely an atheist, so — well — I guess we are electable after all! Why not go on the offensive, here, and declare him an atheist to see if it actually jolts these deluded shitheads out of their haze?



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  • Would an Atheist Have a Born Again Xtian as his 2nd in command and the god deluded Palin? Trump is the same as most god-deluded toss-pots he believes in God to gain POWER. Trump is a loathsome fat toad, when the Simpsons made him President in 2000, they clearly picked on the most ludicrous person that they could think of – and the American people voted him in! – I’m still thinking that I must be in some kind of hallucinatory state – I will come round and Bill Gates is in charge or something…



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  • crookedshoes

    Why not go on the offensive, here, and declare him an atheist to see if it actually jolts these deluded shitheads out of their haze?

    I don’t agree that Hillary is dogshit but I do like your idea of outing Trump. Normally I don’t support outing anyone but I’m feeling vindictive and he has it coming to him.



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  • Hi Arkrid [#2],

    This is why me, the pundits, most of the world’s rational people could never have predicted this result because rationality doesn’t come into it.

    I don’t believe that to be true.

    The people who voted for a self-confessed crook may have been willing to delude themselves, but so too were the independent media and the Democrats. So many polls were hovering on the margin of error, but any slight Clinton lead was treated as a winning streak. This led to some pretty silly campaigning by Democrats – as Michael Moore pointed out while there was, just, still time to put it right. Oops.

    In addition, just because the voters were themselves irrational that doesn’t mean that the way they voted was not predictable. It was clear to me that the last 10 years of extreme right wing propaganda was paying dividends when Republicans seeking the party nomination started to drop out of the race but Trump (Trump!) remained.

    It was as if everyone had forgotten just how mad the Tea Party was. Those people didn’t just vanish – they became a new, integral, wing of the Republican Party. A wing that campaigns, and votes.

    The role of long-term propaganda and preparation, by some, became clearer as the election cycle moved into the final stages – Trump was clearly extremely well briefed, and he’s not a fool. Sure, he can play the part, but then so can most very intelligent people.

    Someone foresees Trump University might become an issue – no problem the Republican Congress of the last 8 years has been harrying Clinton with false accusations, recycle those. Also, Trump starts saying “Crooked Hilary” early, often and seemingly – on the surface – nastily and ‘obviously’ to his own detriment.

    Nobody saw the Access Hollywood tape coming: Trump is told to keep it simple – explaining makes you look evasive – simply deny, attack Bill’s history and Hilary by association and move on.

    Someone saw the Trump Foundation issue coming. That ground was well prepared too. Suggestive is good enough.

    I could go on, and on, but I don’t have time to detail the Democrats many failings as far as the media election went.

    The three other biggest failings on the Democrat side were:

    To not see the anger in the working and lower-middle classes. Given the large support for Bernie Sanders this is especially dim
    Naïvety. The Democrats never looked like they were in charge of their destiny at any point
    They chose Hilary Clinton. I have nothing against Hilary, either personally or in political terms. But after being attacked continuously by Republicans and right wing media constantly and consistently a media story existed that should, if Democratic Party members were being rational, have simply counted her out

    News flash: I’m not perfect. I didn’t predict a Trump win. But at the end I could see that it was a lot closer to 50:50 than Nate Silver was saying.

    Peace.



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  • They backed Trump to be able to get to roll back the clock.

    http://www.nomblog.com/41186/

    I think anyone who cares about the moral catastrophes to come needs to consider devoting two or three times as much effort to fighting this last hurrah for the Dark Ages of Dogma.

    This site has suddenly become far more important than perhaps it has ever been.



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  • If Trump is an atheist, I don’t think I want to see him outed. I hope he goes to church every week. I’m just going to focus on being a little bit hopeful that he might actually be able to do some good, and not be as bad as I’ve always feared he will be. The very last thing I want, is for this dumb S.O.B. to confirm every fear the rest of the world has always had about atheists.

    Likewise, although I don’t begin to be convinced he is an atheist, I am sure that he is neither thoughtful enough, nor well informed enough, to be the kind of spokesman we need at this period in history. An enlightened and open atheist, well educated in the sciences, could do enormous good for the world. I’ve simply not heard anything in his speech, nor observed anything in his demeanor, that makes me think of him as either informed or thoughtful.

    I will end with this, though. Every time someone like Chancellor Merkel, or Ambassador Gerard Araud says something smarmy and insulting about the man that this country just elected, I would gladly see him put his boot in their… Well… You know. As far as I’m concerned, these people have destroyed the future of their own countries, far beyond the limits of the damage that even Trump will be allowed to do for ours.

    CoffeyC



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  • Perhaps I am being intellectually lazy… but I find comfort in taking a step back and acknowledging evolution in action. Evolution is not goal orientated, but success orientated. Today the Trump memes are successful in the context of the US electoral system. Let the memes and ensuing actions run their evolutionary course.

    Meanwhile I will keep promoting the memes of evidence and rationality.

    Most importantly, I will continue promoting “accountability”. When Trump memes fail to deliver the promised land I will vocally administer to supporters to help responsibility stick. And I will offer accessible, rational, face-saving alternatives, knowing full well that these new memes must compete and survive.

    We are all part of Nature’s on- going experimentation. Rationality may not be the best measure of ‘success’.



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  • Phil #8

    I am encouraged to see the protests that are taking place against Trump in some cities here. Boston had a crowd out last night and so did NYC.

    Even with all of the blustering about heading north to Canada and other locations, most progressive Americans have no choice but to stay and fight.



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  • Hey LaurieB,
    We disagree here as well as disagreeing about Hillary being garbage.

    The election is over. Donald Trump won. It is time to put our grown up pants on and stop stamping our feet like insolent children. He is our President and our fortune is tied to his success. These protests are horseshit. The people are holding signs blaming caucasians. Are you fucking kidding me? Did record numbers of African Americans vote for Obama at nearly a 98% rate? Presumably the racist assholes that voted for Trump also voted against Obama. So….. ummm…..

    Secondary and no less important, these protests are groups of people further dividing our populace. The exact thing that they, themselves, railed against Trump for doing. They are as bad as what they are protesting against.

    There is a subculture rising quickly in America that simply wants to be mad. They do not want answers. The do not want solutions, they do not want the “oppression” to end. They want to be mad. Reminds me fully of the Christian need to feel persecuted. They need this so that they can have a purpose.

    What should be being done is some ownership of the failure to beat a hoodlum at a game that he’s NEVER PLAYED BEFORE. This is losers acting exactly like losers. Step up, own the loss, and figure out a way to not ever let it occur again.

    She lost because she is an unelectable shit monger and she lost to the biggest piece of shit on the street. And, instead of productive conversation and work, we have assholes blocking traffic and infuriating people on their way to and from work.



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  • Laurie 11
    Phil 8

    “…most progressive Americans have no choice but to stay and fight.”

    Laurie, that was the best thing you could have said. He lost the popular vote. He won’t get a second term and he won’t be able to do anything crazy like try to repeal Roe V Wade so long as there is opposition and resistance. We have to make our voices heard.

    Try to see Rachel Maddow’s interview with Elizabeth Warren if you missed it tonight.

    This site has suddenly become far more important than perhaps it has ever been.

    Warren (who is inspiring!) talked about that, Phil —Not about this site in particular, but about mobilizing, getting involved, connecting on the internet, and in other ways. She also talked about volunteering. Above all, we must fight back – however we can. She was passionate about that, and she truly detests Trump. She is so real. I love her.

    And she said exactly what Laurie just said above.

    If everyone leaves or remains passive we’re finished.



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  • Crooked

    They want to be mad.

    A powerful emotion, the motor for action, a motor for cohesion. See how it worked for the poor and the religious.

    I profoundly disliked Hillary for earlier transgressions. Latterly I spent several days going through her policies and tracking her change of attitudes on issues and her explanations of these. I found a learner and a set of pragmatic policies all pointing in the right directions, staged to stand a chance of success. Her failing was the lack of charisma and the un-matched camera-truthiness of her rival.

    To say she was shit is to miss the most profound lesson of all. The voting public don’t do detail. They don’t go and read up the policies and note the profound significance of policies starting to steer the money markets away from casino banking, f’rinstance, but are mostly visceral. Even amongst our potential friends, they are mostly, simply visceral in their judgements.

    We need to up the passion, up the moral indignation. We (!) needed Bernie and some burning anger from the start.



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  • crookedshoes #12
    Nov 10, 2016 at 9:40 pm

    The election is over. Donald Trump won.

    True, but that does kinda illustrates the flaws of the system.

    It is time to put our grown up pants on and stop stamping our feet like insolent children.

    I think there are real issues which need to be addressed.

    The main ones are the lack of independent regulation of press and media standards, and the US system of essentially putting the positions of public officials, up for auction to the corporate sponsors.
    Clowns who generate profitable media copy by their ridiculous claims and stupid stunts, also get undue coverage, free promotion and “stardom”!

    That is why lies and ad-hom attacks have forced policy issues off the US agenda, can magnified votes based on deception and ignorance.

    Many issues including press regulation, are more fully discussed on this other discussion.

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2016/11/honesty-rip-facts-take-a-beating-across-us/#li-comment-214045

    The UK had a similar dishonest brexit campaign dominated by ignorant assertions and wish thinking.

    He is our President and our fortune is tied to his success.

    You are indeed stuck with him for a four year term.

    The voters do not seem to have learned from the $4 to $6 trillion (of mainly borrowed money) – chalked up to the US taxpayers – that Bush spent causing chaos, civil wars and refugee crises, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria!

    These protests are horseshit.

    All those naive voters who were protest-voting “against the US establishment”, are rapidly going to discover post election, that Trump is gathering around him a collection of the most inept delusional stooge establishment figures, for recruitment to his administration, now that the gullibles have voted him into power!

    The present protests are from those who anticipate problems and abuses.

    If Trump actually goes ahead with his claimed objectives, there will be more massive protests about the consequential disaster areas created. If he does not, those who voted for these stupid, simplistic, knee-jerk pseudo-answers, will also complain loudly.

    The US can look forward to plenty of future internal strife, along with declining diplomatic relations with the countries of the civilised world.
    However, the fascist nuts around Europe, are already celebrating the US example of gaining support from a conned electorate!



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  • Even with all of the blustering about heading north to Canada and
    other locations, most progressive Americans have no choice but to stay
    and fight.

    I do not consider myself a progressive, although I do lean toward liberalism. I am going to “stay and fight” but not because I have no choice. It is because this is my country. I was born here, and have lived my entire life here. It is all I know.



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  • This, I think, is significant.

    …6.8 million fewer Democrats came out for Clinton than did for Obama in 2012. Compare that to only 1.9 million fewer Republicans who came out…

    I think a whiff of idealism amongst Democrats to ward off the “stink” of Clinton got the better of too many. We saw it again and again here.

    Idealism is something better kept out of making binary, life-changing decisions.



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  • Again,
    What is the goal of the protests? Is it to “out” Trump as a racist? We all know he is. Is it to raise awareness of the awful process of our “democracy”? We all see that it blows. What is the mission statement? What is the purpose? What is the end game? How do the protesters gauge their success? Is this simply masturbation?

    Do you all not realize that when Obama won, the racist voter base that just elected Trump was scared and indignant? Do you not think that they were angry and disillusioned? They ate it.

    They did not protest in the streets. They did not act like pampered spoiled entitled assholes and aim their disdain at the workers trying to get to and from their jobs.

    They were furious and felt EXACTLY like the people protesting right now currently feel. They just did something about it. So, keep marching on dead events. Keep stamping your feet and acting like blocking traffic (which Chris Christie (a republican) is under federal investigation for doing)…. Keep thinking that anyone in power is listening.

    Or DO something about it. Make bridges with these people. mend fences… Represent yourselves in a way that gets you to where you want to be. Act. But do not act randomly. Do not simply vent frustration and walk in an aimless circle. I share your outrage. I share your fear. I do not share your incessant need to carry signs that say “hooray for our side”… This is not the 1960’s. This is not marching for civil rights.

    This is disorganized chaos for chaos’ sake when there are way way more effective ways to get messages out. Ways that have evolved since the 1960’s. Ways that were not available then but had they been, would have been used by the intelligent, well thought out protests that occurred. That day has passed and all these protests are now is a bullshit gesture of empty sentiment, falling on deaf and indifferent ears.

    I agree with all of you about the scary prospect facing us all. I am a fucking teacher… You think I am happy about Trump HATING public education? I have a 17 and 19 year old, think i am happy about the prospect of him starting a war? doing away with affordable insurance? i am a biologist/conservationist. Think i am ok with his anti climate change anti science stances? NO NO NO NO NO ….

    But, holding working people hostage and acting like punk ass bitches does not and will not effect any change that matters. And, a protest without a goal or endgame is simply people marching in a circle commiserating about the bucket of shit we live in instead of cleaning the bucket up.

    90,000,000 people DID NOT VOTE. 90 fucking million people chose not to vote. how many of them are now self righteously indignant and carrying signs about how unfair all this is???? Are you kidding me?



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  • BTW,
    Vicki and I are in agreement and I love what you said.

    Phil nails it by clearly demonstrating that if these same people that are protesting got off their asses a few days ago and VOTED that we would not have Trump as our leader. But, well, they didn’t.

    So protest. But make sure you own face is on the goddamn sign you are carrying.

    finally,

    Alan4, The protests are not horseshit because Trump is kind and smart and great. They are not horseshit because the message is bullshit (it is a necessary message and people should be scared of the future he has portrayed)… The protests are horseshit because they are disorganized, visionless, emotional reactions that ultimately do nothing to change the situation. They are a waste of time.



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  • crookedshoes #20
    Nov 11, 2016 at 8:59 am

    The protests are horseshit because they are disorganized, visionless, emotional reactions that ultimately do nothing to change the situation. They are a waste of time.

    I agree that protesting in the streets AFTER the battle is lost, rather than actively campaigning while there is time to make a difference, is a poor option.

    It does however seem to be the option the US and the world is stuck with for the next four years.

    Trump does not learn!
    He simply continues to abrasively dispute any advice or rulings which go against him, or tell him he is wrong!
    This was amply illustrated in his antics in delaying and unsuccessfully trying to prevent the construction of a Scottish wind farm.

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2016/05/welcome-to-the-age-of-trump/#li-comment-203959



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  • Olgun,

    How does a poor family ‘unite’ around losing Obama Care or even attempt to ‘take ownership’ of it?

    I really don’t know. However, a start could have been VOTING against this asshole.

    i will tell you this, though. Maybe this hypothetical poor family will get lots of job offers and wheelbarrows full of money for not going to work and instead walking through traffic holding a sign. Yeah, that’s what they all should do. That will solve their problem.

    You clearly have offered me a situation that is dire. I do not know what these folks should do. You, however offer no better alternative and seem to be suggesting that their “logical” way out of this is to carry a sign around.

    What do you think they should do?

    Has the answer to poverty been right in front of us this whole time? You mean their lot in life will improve drastically if they block traffic and wave banners? Well, I do not see how that puts food on the table, but…..



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  • crookedshoes #19
    Nov 11, 2016 at 8:49 am

    90,000,000 people DID NOT VOTE. 90 fucking million people chose not to vote. how many of them are now self righteously indignant and carrying signs about how unfair all this is???? Are you kidding me?

    I have worked on lots of UK elections, and found that those who don’t bother to read manifestos or vote, feel in no way inhibited from complaining that the outcomes and effects are not to their liking, – or further complaining that someone else should have done something about it for them!

    They also see no problem in voting for disingenuous candidates who promise to vote cut to taxes and also simultaneously promise to increase the services paid for by those taxes!



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  • Alan4,

    I agree that protesting in the streets AFTER the battle is lost, rather than actively campaigning while there is time to make a difference, is a poor option.

    This is the crux of my argument. These folks have to come to terms with the fact that this is (at least partially) their own fault. I will not shoulder the blame here and the fact that I am being targeted as the enemy (because I’m white) and made to “feel the burn” by being crippled with traffic jams (because I am working class), is reprehensible and puts me in the mindset to be oppositional to any of these people.

    Further, to paint caucasians with the old “broad brush” and to vilify a group of people because of the actions of a subset of that group is EXACTLY WHAT RACISM IS…. and isn’t that what all fair minded people think is a major flaw of Trump?



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  • Also,
    We atheists see very clearly (most of us) the Fundamental Islam idiots in the Middle East have their equivalent faction in the Fundamental Christian idiots here in the US. They are both, in fact, the same thing to me. from my perspective, both suck, neither is correct, and they engage in the exact behaviors they condemn the “others” for engaging in.

    To an extent, I feel, the same goes here. Extremists elected Trump and now Extremists are protesting and resorting to racism and holding hostage MY freedom to make a point to TRUMP. I am merely holding my own protest and trying to point out that both sides of this are costing me (working middle class) and only me anything at all.



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  • crookedshoes

    “Congress shall make no law… abridging…the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    AMENDMENT I

    The Constitution has spoken. The protesters have the right to express their outrage whether they voted against Trump or not.

    These folks have to come to terms with the fact that this is (at least partially) their own fault.

    Yes, and protest is apparently part of that process.

    I have no problem with Trump getting an eye full of what he will face if he chooses to make his stated views of women, minorities and the disabled a policy reality. The reactionary political party he represents has a party platform that states in black and white what that party intends to accomplish. I hope the protests continue and I hope the college young people are ready to riot against him the minute he lets his Republican thugs try to send us back into the dark ages.

    We have the RIGHT to protest. So sad you’re stuck in traffic. :’-( boo hoo



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  • Two tweets from our idiot President:

    Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
    Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!
    9:19 PM – 10 Nov 2016

    Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
    Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!
    6:14 AM – 11 Nov 2016

    He reveals his idiocy with every tweet. This guy is completely off his rocker. Certifiable



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  • Laurie,

    Exactly right. We need to start mitigating these various disasters, already laid out for us to see, immediately. Politics is the art of the possible and that needs sufficient consent. The elected are in office, not in power.

    Re-engaging the young will be key.

    Indeed this is exactly the outcome wished for by some on the left acting somewhat as Trump voting terrorists, to shock people into noticing the need to properly engage in their own governance.



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  • Phil

    Re-engaging the young will be key.

    I grew up watching the college people protesting and rioting over the Vietnam war. It was on TV every night. I know from that we have the potential to make a difference. I don’t support the violence and destruction that I saw going on last night in those protests. I’ve been to protests in D.C. that were massive and peaceful. The protest at the start of the American bombing of Iraq was large, peaceful and visible.

    When we start to worry about inconvenient traffic jams in the face of what the Republicans promise for the country then we are lost.

    I understand that much of our youth here have never experienced the oppression of the fundamentalist fascists in this country. Young women will be shocked when abortion is made illegal or no birth control without a marriage license, etc. They’ve always had it and may be ignorant as to the fight that women my age and older waged to get reproductive freedoms. This will be a difficult learning curve for them.



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  • Crooked #22

    I really don’t know. However, a start could have been VOTING against
    this asshole.

    Do we know which of them did and did not?

    You, however offer no better alternative

    I did! Not losing their health care!!

    Has the answer to poverty been right in front of us this whole time

    Some, but these people could feel that they have been ignored.

    The onus is on the people that can campaign properly. There are so many reasons why a visible campaign should also be pursued by the very people effected the most.



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  • LaurieB,
    I agree with you regarding the right to protest, no need for the constitutional screen shot. I think that these protests are superficial exercises in idiocy. As for me being stuck in traffic and boo-hoo.
    Well, boo-hoo Trump is president. So sad you couldn’t get your candidate elected. Maybe she’s dogshit. Maybe if more of the “supporters” of hers actually voted… Maybe the other side would be protesting and you’d be chastising them for doing it.

    And, maybe if what was stuck in traffic was an ambulance with a dying person on board that would have lived had there not been a two hour delay…. well, the point isn’t “poor me” I am inconvenienced by this. The point is, I (working class America) am the ONLY one being inconvenienced by this. That’s the point. One that you seem to want to misinterpret on purpose.

    i am not comparing my “caught in traffic” to what the Republicans promise for the country. i am saying that the message needs to be brought to their door, not mine. I did not vote for the idiot in question (nor did I vote for the other idiot). And, while you thump away at your self righteous images of what “should be”, another opportunity passes by to actually effect change. But everyone seems to want to stamp their feet in an impotent gesturer and bellyache. So, yours is a voice in the cacophony…. and that’s what it will stay because you (like the republicans) are not listening to what we middle road people are saying.

    you are right and that’s it. No compromise, no “work together”, no “other voices”… you are right and you are now putting your figurative fingers in your proverbial ears and hollering “lalalalalalal” so as not to hear any suggestions that you may need to meet in the middle to get progress. You’d rather drown in your own shit than work with these “deplorables” at making it better for both sides. They have spoken and are in the majority and while you certainly have the right to protest, what exactly is the protest going to accomplish?

    Oh, and do you see that you are siding with the people that are destroying other’s property and resorting to violence? Well, the “other people’s property” is MINE. And you nor they have any right to do that. Do it right or do not do it. Proof that this is phony horseshit is that it is moving to violence. If it really was about values everyone’s would be on display. But what is on display is what i am mentioning.



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  • I certainly think the young have had too few problems. I think they have effectively invented some (micro-aggressions…many more) to re-experience a normal emotional range. More than anything I have felt American folk live in something of a cultural bubble also because of the self sufficient scale of their successful nation and the hugely introspective nature of their fourth estate. Experience, both positive and negative about how other peoples lead their lives and the potential to choose differently from the 1950s vision they are heading back to, is essential.

    Violence is entirely counter productive though inconvenient displays of deep anger and dismay at the immorality to come is entirely appropriate. Vietnam and Iraq marches where about Morality. More than anything I want the Right to understand the generous nature of our Morality perched on this pale blue dot we all share and the petty and mean-spirited compass of their own.



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  • Yes, the US constitution gives protestors the right to express their outrage. But it DOES NOT protect such expression in the form of damaging property and stopping traffic on freeways.

    Donald Trump was elected president because the EMPLOYED middle-class is ABSOLUTELY DONE with the democratic agenda of entitlements and handouts. Another major factor is that Hillary Clinton is as crooked a politician as they come. Her “influence” over liberal media networks failed to conceal this. She’s a CRIMINAL, worthy of imprisonment.



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  • Michael.

    Civil disobedience has an honourable track record in the US. It has its consequences, which most are happy to pay drawing further attention to their concerns.

    Donald Trump was elected president because the EMPLOYED middle-class is ABSOLUTELY DONE with the democratic agenda of entitlements and handouts.

    So THAT’s what it was about. I completely missed that. Thank you for your personal view.

    My view is that the educated middle class can see the systemic iniquity of your society, with those poorer and less educated folk being gulled by libertarians such as yourself into thinking all they have to do is work and wish harder. Only in the USA of all OECD countries is IQ of poor kids adversely affected by being poor, welfare being so inadequate to the task. But then inadequate also are those incompetent kids making such a hash of selecting decent parents in the first place.

    The fact that the ordinary working folk have been stolen from by the rich since the eighties has meant they have been made mean spirited and begrudging of help to those others in worse straights than themselves.

    Germany and Japan show the way.



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  • Michael Rohde #35
    Nov 11, 2016 at 1:35 pm

    I appreciate your view as well, phil rimmer!

    Perhaps some comparisons with the rest of the developed world, would help explain the anger of a threat to abolish Obamacare.

    https://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/2011/04/26/cost-of-health-care-by-country-national-geographic/

    Obamacare was in improvement, but still short of the services in most developed countries, but now those fed nonsense by the likes of Faux News, want to turn back the clock!

    Do you really like paying TWICE AS MUCH as most countries for a poorer health service?

    ( If you can’t find the cost to Americans at first glance, that is because it is the red line which goes off the top of the graph! )



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  • Alan4,

    The first thing that needs reform (and it will NEVER NEVER NEVER occur, with Trump and even moderate republicans at the helm) is the complete removal of any lobbying power and/or political control exerted by insurance companies. They are the root cause of our healthcare issues and, if you’d ask me, the root cause of many of our social ills.

    I foment at the decision to shut most of our mental health facilities. I, sitting at my desk this moment, could draw a circle on a map with a 10 mile radius around me and name at least 5 mental health facilities that have been shuttered because there is no money for insurance companies in treating mental illness. They have been allowed to dictate policy and served themselves at the expense of every single American family.

    Obamacare may be good for some and bad for others (as are most social “cures”) but the price of doing insurance business should be the automatic funding of money losers like mental health facilities. The moment insurance companies were allowed to go public and have stock holders is when this landslide began. And now, we are buried under it.

    Add easy access to firearms to this and the person sitting next to you at the movies could be armed and delusional, where generations ago, they’d be getting the care that should be proffered to every one who needs it.



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  • Health insurance would have been better had the Republicans not tried to do everything in their power to influence public opinion against “socialized medicine” and prevent the public option, and other provisions that would have prevented price gouging. We got a half measure, and now the private insurance companies have seized that loophole and have driven up costs. As a result – and they knew this would happen – Trump and others blamed Obama for the rising costs of premiums, and are now determined – or so they say – to repeal the flawed but improved system, and replace it with a totally privately controlled system, rather than trying to make what we have better. It’s barbarism.

    Trump’s tweet and his contempt for the “media” does not bode well for the future.

    As for the protesters, that protest is not only a right; it’s a necessity. You get rid of that and you have silenced all opposition and dissent: you have total control (totalitarianism).

    As for damaging property, that always happens when you get large groups of citizens marching in defiance of something they deem as a threat to their civil rights. Much of the time the people who vandalize are on the Republican payroll. Authoritarian leaders love destruction of property during protests!—They can then say: “look at these animals”. Then the police, the militia is brought out and Law and Order is restored. That’s what happens. The cry for “law and order” is the absolute mark of totalitarianism in its germ.

    Anyone who would complain about destruction of property at a time like this is (in all probability) a reactionary, a right wing zealot, totalitarian to the core, and an enemy of democracy, a troll. They must be identified as such, as the enemy.

    I am tired of trying to figure out what went wrong, although I addressed this on the other “Facts Don’t Matter” thread, or whatever it’s called. People get duped, are ignorant, and vote agains their own interests…. Anyway, we’re here now.

    Woke up again with a painful sense of foreboding.



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  • crookedshoes #37
    Nov 11, 2016 at 2:18 pm

    I, sitting at my desk this moment, could draw a circle on a map with a 10 mile radius around me and name at least 5 mental health facilities that have been shuttered because there is no money for insurance companies in treating mental illness. They have been allowed to dictate policy and served themselves at the expense of every single American family.

    I personally use the UK National Health Service which after contributing National Insurance deducted from salary while working, provides me with doctors and hospital services, along with some medications at no charge.
    NHS patients pay standard prescription fees for drugs, and standard charges for dental treatments.

    I have had no dealings personally with US health services, but my daughter (who is now a lawyer in England), as post graduate law student, did a gap year working as a secretary / receptionist for a law firm in New York, which specialised in doctor-defence, and fighting insurance companies on behalf of hospitals. I do have some inside information on how the US system works and where the money goes.



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  • Ed Meese is back. I had thought he was long gone. Meese!

    And. The guy in charge of lobbying for Hellish scam-meister Verizon has been put in charge of the FCC.



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  • Once again…the US constitutional freedom of expression DOES NOT cover violent or dangerous acts of ANY SORT. You can stroke your keyboards, but you can’t throw them!

    Republicans won this election FAIR and SQUARE. Your being upset with this outcome DOES NOT warrant your mobbing together to tear your city apart and disrupt the flow of traffic.

    My disdain for these liberal rioters stems from my civility. I condemn their actions, their “everyone gets a trophy” mindset, and their blatant, unbridled HYPOCRISY with respect to tolerance.



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  • It has started! Hitler incarnate. The violence is all over Facebook. The people who voted for him are going to get the worst of it. We have to just sit back and do our thing until someone gets these monsters out.



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  • I’m referencing photos of racist vigilante groups beating people of color up, all over Facebook. I honestly don’t know the extent of this, but I believe we are already seeing eruptions of racist barbarism. These photos were sent to me. Trump created this, with his rhetoric and dog-whistles.

    He was never for unity. He did not mince words.

    The point about protesters was that if you have a few thousand people protesting, a few people are bound to break the law. That’s not right; but then ALL of the protesters are characterized as “animals” and it goes from there. Military law, and the loss of that basic right to protest for right. This does happen. And don’t be surprised if the violent ones are on the Republican payroll. They want the protests to get out of hand so they can exercise Authority – and silence the voice of opposition.



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  • Dan #44
    Nov 11, 2016 at 4:41 pm

    He was never for unity. He did not mince words.

    He’s for the same sort of “unity” as Corbyn in the UK!

    “Do what I say without dissent or critical thinking, and we will all be united!”



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  • From my comment #29 above:

    I don’t support the violence and destruction that I saw going on last night in those protests.

    We have the right to protest and there are rules that must be followed for protest. I support the rules. Do not present me as being in support of violence and destruction.

    crookedshoes

    I think that these protests are superficial exercises in idiocy.

    You are welcome to your opinion. The power of public protest was explained to me decades ago when I read H. Kissenger’s autobiography and he explained that due to the unrest and protest on college campuses and in public places the negotiating team was under pressure to end the Vietnam war. When things get to the boiling point in the public square, the politicians get nervous.

    And, maybe if what was stuck in traffic was an ambulance with a dying person on board that would have lived had there not been a two hour delay….

    Last time I checked, protesters were not allowed to block the streets. There was a protest in Boston a while back in front of the Christian Science church and the cops made sure everyone stayed on the sidewalk. I also saw them doing this in NYC for the many protests they have there on a regular basis. This is perfectly fine and I have no problem with that. Like I said, there are rules for protest.

    And, while you thump away at your self righteous images of what “should be”, another opportunity passes by to actually effect change.

    Crooked, what did I say that is a self-righteous image of what should be? What did I say that set you off like that?!

    I wonder if you imagine that the reproductive rights people ought to be grateful for the opportunity to work out a deal with the neocons that are swarming around Trump right now. This will never happen. We’ve been holding these frothing at the mouth reactionaries off for decades now. They have undermined us every step of the way and now every progressive is alarmed and on edge just waiting for the axe to fall. Evangelicals and Catholics are drooling over the very real opportunity that has fallen in their lap to send women back to barefoot and pregnant and men can look forward (backward) to shotgun weddings. This is only ONE issue that is sending those protesters out into the streets.

    You’d rather drown in your own shit than work with these “deplorables” at making it better for both sides.

    Working with the deplorables will get us nowhere. It’s not a compromise between progressive liberals and a bunch of deplorables that got us all of the legal victories that we’ve achieved in the past years. It’s that we have had a progressive intelligent competant President and a Supreme Court that has just enough liberals to counter the reactionary shits on the other side. Scalia; ding dong the witch is dead.

    We are inching ahead in this country with women’s rights, civil rights, children’s rights and animal rights and it’s not an easy battle. It’s a fight. It takes the guts to get out there and protest and raise money and talk down the cruel idiots who don’t know any better and don’t have the brainpower to get themselves over to the side of progress. Those deplorables are holding us back.

    They have spoken and are in the majority

    No. I don’t believe they are in the majority.

    Also, you’ve mentioned blocked traffic seven times in this thread so I figure you’re pretty pissed off about it. Hope you have a better commute tomorrow.



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  • They are not the majority. I don’t believe that; I know it. HRC won the popular vote.

    Look at this!! (Below) This is our new President? And this is just one issue out of many. This situation is horrible!

    If we can’t protest we will get fascism – and don’t kid yourself that we won’t!! (See my comment 44 and part of 38)

    Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump
    Give me clean, beautiful and healthy air – not the same old climate change (global warming) bullshit! I am tired of hearing this nonsense.
    1:44 AM – 29 Jan 2014

    We are a nation in crisis.



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  • Dan,

    Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 0.3%. This is to say she BARELY won it. Such a small margin of victory is hardly sufficient reason for criticizing the importance of electoral votes, let alone their LANDSLIDE outcome in Donald Trump’s favor.

    Let’s be reasonable and not judge the forthcoming actions of a newly-inaugurated president based on a tweet made nearly 3 years ago. In fact, let’s IGNORE tweets altogether.

    Donald Trump made some offensive, and downright dumb, statements during his campaign. So did Hillary Clinton. Regardless, those who incite violence or commit acts of destruction as a result of being verbally offended are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for their own stupid actions.

    If you want to pin racism on something, pin it on the relentless race-baiting of liberal news networks. They’re the true source of invigorating and fueling racism of late. If George Zimmerman was black, we wouldn’t recognize his name.



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  • MR

    Let’s be reasonable and not judge the forthcoming actions of a newly-inaugurated president based on a tweet made nearly 3 years ago. In fact, let’s IGNORE tweets altogether.

    Seriously??!! That won’t and can’t happen. It’s not possible.



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  • Hi, Laurie (et al),

    As our Arkrid Sandwich said so eloquently on another thread, I am grateful to be able to…. I think I will just quote him verbatim, as I can’t say it any better:

    “I’d like to take a moment out from my usual pontifications to just say a thank you to everyone on this site. On this occasion of shock and disbelief at what has just happened in the USA it really does help to have the thoughts and opinions and comfort of like minded others.”



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  • John Bolton, one of the most psychopathic warmongers on the planet, as Secretary of State! He’s on the short list. And Sara Palin will have an important job I’m sure.

    It may be that the situation is far worse, far more dire, far more challenging, than we can even imagine.

    As we all know species do become extinct. All the time. And we humans, finally, are just a species. Exceptional, yes – but just a species. The continuation of life, the habitability of the planet, is not a permanent carpet under our feet, something to take for granted. Our survival as a species, and our delicate and precious democracy along with our hard-fought acquisition of freedoms and civil rights, are not indestructible. We tend to think that we, as a species, and our much enjoyed freedoms, will go on forever. But this is a mere habit of mind, something built in to our psyches.

    It is time now – more than ever – for Reason, and for cold, sober reflection, as we receive Evidence and Information in the days, weeks, and months to come – and to come to terms, if need be, with the reality of a truly nightmarish period in American life. And yes, this might be the death-knell of the species.

    And if Reason, over the days and months to come, tells us that the situation is not so dire, then that will be cause for rejoicing. That is a scenario too.



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  • Here’s a different angle that I’ve not seen mentioned here:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11746796

    Sorry, I couldn’t find the original Washington Post article, this is a reprint. If someone finds the original, please post a link.

    Specifically, it’s the ongoing muddled middle east connection of the US establishment snuggled up to Saudi and Qatar while they continue to fund the daesh death cult, leading to the over simplistic Trump allegation that “Hillary started ISIS” or words to that effect.

    Lots of people, one way or another, voted against “more of the same”. Well, it seems like whatever we get now, it won’t be “more of the same”, will it?

    On the bright side, how about moving to California and spending the next four years recreationally stoned on legal marijuana? Nobody else see that silver lining? No? Oh, well, I didn’t really think so.



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  • I saw her on CNN, OHooligan. She’s a horror. She thought Khan’s wife (the Gold Star mother) was fake, planted there by the DNC. “Who was she,” she asked? “No one knows her name.” A real loathsome wacko. They’re all coming out now.



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  • Hilarious,
    Look at how many times it has now been said on this thread that “I don’t BELIEVE they are in the majority”… Believe! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH… And, now you’ve all gone on record as saying you “won’t” work with “them”. Christ are you all looking so bad right around now. What a huge 180 this whole thing has taken.

    The smug “loser” attitude and the pointing at the system and calling it rigged was the schtick of the republicans. The “we are better than that” moral high ground, work together rhetoric was securely under the ownership of the Democrats.
    Now???? Well, I will let your comments speak for themselves. You are guilty of every single infraction of the “other side”… but PLUS one. You are knee jerk reacting to shit that hasn’t occurred yet.

    In Biology we have “taxis” and “kinesis” and many of you are mixing them up. Here’s the thing: animal locomotion can be random and undirected (kinesis — this is what the protests are) or it can be directional and meaningful (taxis — like what I am asserting your course of action should be).
    Shine light on mealworms and they start writhing and bolt in random directions. They simply MOVE. Taxis is especially effective in evasion of predators and is employed by many many species.

    the protests are kinesis. What i think needs to be done is taxis.

    LaurieB,
    The traffic thing is the tip of the iceberg. A police officer’s gun was stolen while he was attacked during one of these protests. On a personal note, I was down in Philly this morning for the beginning of the Alzheimer’s charity walk and I had to run into center city for an errand. I got out of my car and was going to walk through a group of protesters and was quickly surrounded. People began screaming in my face. It was actually said that I was “white so I probably voted for Trump”… Someone shoved me. Now, mind you, I have thick skin and was shaken, but not for very long.

    I am a 6 foot tall 275 pound alpha male who most certainly did NOT vote for Trump. I made it clear that I did not vote for him but invited any of the assholes to be the first to have their noses bitten off their faces. No takers.

    BUT, my daughter (19 years old) has a field trip in Philly today. What would you do? I am going with her. You want to live like this? You think this is ok? You side with this trash? Then, even though we agree totally on the actual issue, you’ve taken a stand against me and threatened my constitutional rights and DIVIDED even our side. You are wrong here and I’ve done all I need to do to illustrate that. If you continue to wiggle yourself further into the mire you’ve bogged into, you simply high light my point.

    Back to science. This situation is best modeled after the pH scale. See, i am close to pH 7…. somewhere in the middle. You (and your protestor cohort) are pH 14. Trump and his cohort are pH 0. You think being “overly acidic” is felonious and seem to do so without realizing that being “overly basic” is just as caustic.

    Finally, Olgun,
    Trump has already ramped way way down his “gutting” of obamacare and has vowed to allow specific items to stand including coverage for 18-26 year olds among other caveats. I sincerely hope he retreats more and more as he is briefed and knows more and more (because his bluster to this point showed clearly that he doesn’t/didn’t know a fucking thing about any of these policies).

    He hasn’t made a single decision, he has totally changed demeanor, and has taken the visage of a leader and has said all the right things as far as “unify the country” and all that. His campaign is over and was all bullshit and I am sorry that the idiot faction fell for it. But they did. There will be no wall. He will backpedal and claim it was a metaphorical “financial” wall. He will not deport anyone, that was bullshit too. His campaign was all lies and bullshit. So was hers.

    Now, people who want a better world can either hold their breath and stamp their feet or roll up their sleeves and work TOGETHER and DIRECTIONALLY to get their agenda recognized. (taxis again)

    I am not going to post for a few days so that I can be proven correct by the events across the country. There will be violence perpetrated at these protests and it will (in your eyes) be the “fault” of the police (who are AT WORK) and not the law breaking- louts who are actually trampling the constitution you keep waving around. They are violating my rights to show that their rights are being threatened. None of their rights have been violated. Only mine. Typical.

    “Fear makes the wolf bigger than he really is”. Once again, my fortune is tied to his success and I am an American before I am a Democrat or Republican. He is the president and I (unlike you) respect the office and hope beyond hoe that he is the most successful president in our history (same as I hoped for Obama) and that he ushers in a period of prosperity and stability. ANd. perhaps, when he knows some of the heavy heavy things that the “in crowd” already knows, he will make rational decisions despite the irrational statements he’s made to get into power.



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  • Crooked

    I dont condone any violence or destruction of property but obviously support the right to protest. I don’t know how disruptive it was but didn’t you just have a year of banner waving, protests and even some violence going on during the elections?

    I am glad to hear today that Trump has had a rethink but how much of that was the result of the protests? I know only too well what it means to keep your cause in the limelight but that does not mean violence. I also know what it is like to see violence erupt around you because the opposition has sent antagonisers to make sure it happens. I have also seen rookie police nearly do the same thing and rile the crowd that me and a few others had to calm down.

    You keep reminding us that you didn’t vote for Trump and throw in your reasons here and there but the same reasons for others gets you steaming mad. The reasons for not voting for him and our complaints are the same but I am sure we all hope that he will do the right thing and everything will be fine but reserve the right to be sceptical. You are in no better a place than with Turkey and Erdogan. Will he hear all the people and get rid of some of his more radical ideas or will he be even more radical because the route to protest is closed down. Seems a slippery slope if the right to protest is damaged in any way.



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  • Look at how many times it has now been said on this thread that “I
    don’t BELIEVE they are in the majority”… Believe!
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…

    Trump was not elected via the majority vote. Between the two, Clinton got more votes. And I would be interested in knowing how it would have played out without the Libertarian or Green votes. Maryland is already looking at changing how their electoral votes are used. As I stated somewhere else, I would like to see a type of primary where it is pre-decided which two parties actually run in the general.

    Now, people who want a better world can either hold their breath and
    stamp their feet or roll up their sleeves and work TOGETHER and
    DIRECTIONALLY to get their agenda recognized. (taxis again)

    That idea appeals to me greatly (or should I say ‘bigly’). I think our 4th estate would play a key role in that type of process, and frankly, it seems to be on a downward spiral. In the cacophony, how does one get heard?

    Yes, crooked, I am alarmed, particularly over who his nomination will be for the SCOTUS. Our president-elect built his campaign on claims of cleaning out the swamp in D.C. So far, though, there is every indication that he will be appointing career swamp creatures to his cabinet. But we shall see.



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  • Crooked. I am astonished you think Trump such a man of ideological integrity that he will not be persuaded of the oppositional shit storm that his policies if implemented undiluted will inevitably cause.

    The demonstrations are exactly what is needed to keep him as honest and modest as his advisors can manage.

    You will say look how modest he is. I will counter look how modest he can be made. He needs early success, not meltdown. We need early mitigations of some of the most devastating prospects the US has ever had to face.

    I’m guessing you have never been involved in civil protests?



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  • I am constantly amazed at the vast amount of people who are coming out of the woodwork as Trump supporters.
    I just threw a friend out for good. He was talking about Hillarys emails, benghazi, and other shit that has been drowned by even the GOP. The investigations are over. Nothing was found. Lots of money has been spent for nothing.
    Trump is a liar, has no experience, is a serious racist and is a threat to the USA.
    What more do some people need.?

    Crooked, I am shocked. I thought you were one of the reasonable ones here. As a Veteran, I will always support protests. And yes, sometimes there are passionate people who do wrong things.
    But when Trump threatens their very existence, you want them to play by those rules?



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  • I saw this open letter to Trump from the ACLU on Coyne’s website WEIT and repost it here. It seems we’re not the only ones who are very worried about Pres. elect.

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/if-donald-trump-implements-his-proposed-policies-well-see-him-court

    If Donald Trump Implements His Proposed Policies, We’ll See Him in Court

    By Anthony D. Romero, ACLU Executive Director
    NOVEMBER 9, 2016 | 11:15 AM
    FacebookTwitterRedditEmailPrint
    web16-trump-red-black-1160×610.jpg
    Trump on podium
    This morning, Donald J. Trump was elected the 45th president of the United States, and the ACLU has a message for him.

    President-elect Trump, as you assume the nation’s highest office, we urge you to reconsider and change course on certain campaign promises you have made. These include your plan to amass a deportation force to remove 11 million undocumented immigrants; ban the entry of Muslims into our country and aggressively surveil them; punish women for accessing abortion; reauthorize waterboarding and other forms of torture; and change our nation’s libel laws and restrict freedom of expression.

    IT’S TIME TO FIGHT

    These proposals are not simply un-American and wrong-headed, they are unlawful and unconstitutional. They violate the First, Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and 14th Amendments. If you do not reverse course and instead endeavor to make these campaign promises a reality, you will have to contend with the full firepower of the ACLU at every step. Our staff of litigators and activists in every state, thousands of volunteers and millions of card-carrying members and supporters are ready to fight against any encroachment on our cherished freedoms and rights.

    One thing is certain: We will be eternally vigilant every single day of your presidency. And when you leave the Oval Office, we will do the same with your successor as we have done throughout our nearly 100 years of existence. The Constitution and the rule of law are stronger than any one person, and we will see to that. We will never waver.



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  • Is the choice between nice, clean, antiseptic protests or no protests? If this becomes an either-or, and those are the only two alternatives, than we will get military law, i.e. a benign or not so benign fascism, and it’ll be the beginning of the end of American democracy. If we lose the right to protest for right (which is sometimes a messy affair), we have nothing left but total control. That is my worst fear.—Already Trump is expressing disdain and contempt and paranoia viv-a-vis the protesters, and he wants to have new (libel) laws which will inhibit journalists from speaking truth to power.

    Maybe one good thing that’ll come out of all this is a return to the spirit of the 60s, where people were engaged and involved, organized, made their voices heard. And don’t say it made no difference, as they were just “a bunch of unruly, acid-heads and hippies.” The anti Vietnam protests and marches played a critical role in affecting the decisions that led to the final end of that bloody and unjust war – but not after 7 million tons of bombs had been dropped on Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.

    Were the civil rights protests a bad thing? Were they always clean and antiseptic? No? And that makes them bad?

    An hypothesis: the instinct to defend those in power, to bow down to authority, and to criticize dissension, is an instinct that hearkens back to our infancy and early childhood: “do this, do that”, we were all told. That is comforting to some people. Many people want, out of fear, perhaps, and perhaps unconsciously, to return to that state of submission. But not me.—That impulse is fodder for totalitarians.

    Protest is what will save us in the end and ensure the preservation of our values. And this situation will reveal who we are as a nation and as individuals.

    My third time (since the election) waking up with the feeling that I had woken up into hell. I felt better as the day progressed.

    I appreciated the comments by Olgun, Phil, Alf, Laurie, Vicki, and others, very much.



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  • Dan, we gotta keep an eye on the Orange man………
    Try looking at it this way. We are giving the GOP and Trump four years to continue to tear themselves to shreds.



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  • Dan

    Protest is what will save us in the end and ensure the preservation of our values.

    You/we can only do this after we have squared away the disgruntled/abandoned voters that formed the initial core of Trump’s support. These neglected folks, away from the bright lights and the money and any kind of job security, whilst the rich fleeced them all the more, may have done a stupid thing but they got our attention and to make the societal adjustments needed they have to be listened to and treated decently.

    On the bright side of all this, Dan, the mayhem and struggle ahead may make you feel alive again, maybe even like the terror of Times Square in the seventies…. I’ll be honest I love the idea of having a reason to make the next big push for civilisation.



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  • Phil, alf,

    Let’s not mince words. Trump is considering Sheriff Clarke (who he loves) for a cabinet position. These people are the scum of the earth. My fear of totalitarianism is justified. (Not like the 70s, exactly. More like a dystopian future that I have only read about, or like Italy under Mussolini.)

    (What does orange man mean? I have heard the term orange used in reference to Trump. I don’t get it.)

    David A. Clarke, Jr. ✔@SheriffClarke
    Before long, Black Lies Matter will join forces with ISIS to being down our legal constituted republic. You heard it first here.

    David A. Clarke, Jr. ✔@SheriffClarke
    These temper tantrums from these radical anarchists must be quelled. There is no legitimate reason to protest the will of the people.
    11:45 PM – 9 Nov 2016

    I like what you said, Alf. But…. I want Hillary back! Waaaaa!



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  • Brother Alf,

    Peter Singer wrote a book called Writings on an Ethical Life, and other books. Laurie likes him a lot, as does Phil. I thought I’d give it a shot. (No pun intended.) I’ll see how his ethics compares to Schopenhauer’s ethics.

    No, Singer is not my rifle. What is this, Full Metal Jacket? You’re funny (and so am I). Did you see that tweet from Sheriff Clarke? (#63) He’s totalitarian to the core! And he’s beloved by Trump!



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  • Olga Khazan – author of the topic article above buried in an avalanche of digressions – identified a significant factor in getting out the evengelical Christian and Catholic vote for Trump: Abortion. We sometimes forget the importance of this “life-or-death” issue – incredulous that any rational person could equate abortion with murder. Pro-life Christians put aside qualms about adolescent groping and “locker-room talk” to support a guy who expressed unconditional support for the pro-life, sanctity of unborn-life position. I wish Olga told us why Pew Research found the portion of pro-life voters spiked from 13% in 2008 to 21% in 2016. Perhaps Obama’s winning coalition, skewed younger, accounted for the difference.

    Indulging in my own digression, I believe Hillary made a PR blunder by moving too far into controversial territory on the left. Promising to make the super-rich pay their fair share of taxes was Democratic pablum. But when she started schmoozing with Black Lives Matter advocates and brought up on stage black mothers whose sons had been shot by police under conflicting accounts she started to flirt with thuggish or extreme identity politics overplaying the race card. Americans with no racist, misogynist or Islamophobic tendencies felt called out by political correctness for “crimes” they had not committed. Trump appealed to many voters at conscious and unconscious levels who felt slandered, shunned or dehumanized by PC fanatics or extremist identity politics attack dogs.

    (P.S.: I appreciate the exchanges between candid crookedshoes, Phil and others spelling out uncomfortable truths about the system.)



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  • Melvin,

    Black Lives Matter matters. It is a remaining moral pivot point for me to illustrate yet again how a smiley American culture can be unwittingly selfish and self destructive.

    Of all the books I recommend here these two are never taken up by Americans though they have quite a high profile in the UK being featured variously in a sociology program and read on “Book of the Week”

    “On the Run” by Alice Goffman and

    “Another Day in the Death of America” by Gary Young.

    These illustrate (particularly the first) how poverty and in particular black poverty trap young boys in a debilitating early entanglement with the law that leads to their progressive loss of all chances to benefit from state services.

    The Clinton’s are guilty of a lot of this promoting and endorsing zero tolerance policing, starting a righteously pissed off child’s rap sheet in early teens.

    Both have said, looking at the results, that they were wrong to do so. This was one of the initial reasons I disliked her intensely and why I changed my mind. She genuinely saw the error of her/their ways, indeed as she did on a number of issues. (Most recently her shifting policy on banking reform, made her schmoozing remarks at Goldman Sachs a lot less painful. These fellas are dangerous and need calming before you snip off a testicle.)

    Maybe she overcompensated on BLM. She certainly is not helped by BLM’s failure to present their own problem in a balanced, way hinging far too much on mere racism, when the initial problem within the communities is the stress of poverty. In general I find the Black Community far too much in thrall to the ideologies of rich white communities, fuelled as much by religion as anything. The “just deserts” narratives and proud self reliance stops them seeing that individuals cannot drag themselves up by sheer force of will given the talents of the ordinary Joe and Jane. That disadvantage breeds disadvantage and most particularly in the USA. (They actually supported Clinton and not Sanders which is gobsmackingly weird and may also be a religious thing.)



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  • Phil: I changed my mind. She genuinely saw the error of her/their ways, indeed as she did on a number of issues. (Most recently her shifting policy on banking reform, made her schmoozing remarks at Goldman Sachs a lot less painful. These fellas are dangerous and need calming before you snip off a testicle.)

    I commend your prodigious efforts to become informed about Hillary Clinton and our election. The conclusion, “…she genuinely saw the error of her/their ways, indeed as she did on a number of issues..,” awaited hindsight after she had been in office a year or two, now a counterfactual speculation rendered futile by the Trump victory. Maybe if what you say is true, we could agree it was just too little too late.

    There is much truth in what you say. The U.S. has grown an impressive black middle class since the civil rights era, suggesting a dynamic breakdown in the culture of poverty or cycle of poverty theory on this front. Ambiguously stubborn persistence of poverty and dysfunction in large swaths of black populations located in inner cities still lends credibility to the concept. Though necessarily examined on a much smaller scale, how are blacks faring in the UK?



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  • Melvin

    The zero tolerance legislation change of heart came in 2008/9 or thereabouts. The intention to tax casino style trading was simply in her economic policies for this election. I don’t exactly know when she adopted this. I linked to it about a week or ten days ago.

    The difference for our black communities, is that though still under achieving economically, at least, like all of us, they have free healthcare and all the residuum of a once decent welfare state. Racism fades with each generation and if my kids notice the least little bit of it amongst their friends they are shocked. They have far more black friends than I ever had. A current marvellous series of BBC TV programmes are restoring their heritage in British history from the African Roman Legions in the north through Francis Barber (Sam Johnson’s beloved manservant), Mary Seacole and many others. Increasingly, also, black folk see themselves reflected properly in the media. (BBC radio needs a bit more effort, its slow progress is not so obvious.) The economic thing will normalise, though it too could do with a bit of a hurry up.

    We need a black Prime Minister. Maybe we could borrow your chap?

    The general nonavailability of guns means teens (always a volatile and dangerous lot) can’t get themselves into irretrievable catastrophic scrapes so easily.

    The closest we had to oppressive policing was was the use in the late seventies and 1980 of the “sus” law (stop on suspicion) coupled with racial profiling. This led to extensive riots and the rightful repeal of the Regency (?) law shortly afterwards.



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  • Hi, Melvin,

    I appreciate your comments, although some of them seem to reflect a fundamental dislike and distrust of Hillary Clinton – which you have every right to feel, obviously. — But feelings don’t make facts.

    . . . But when she started schmoozing with Black Lives Matter advocates . . . Americans with no racist, misogynist or Islamophobic tendencies felt called out by political correctness for “crimes” they had not committed.

    How do you know what was felt, unless you’re omniscient or have spoken to these voters? I don’t know, and didn’t hear, anyone who gave me any reason to think that they felt that way. Not one person. I certainly didn’t feel that way. The people who felt offended (“called out”) probably were racists and sexists; people who are not racists and sexists – although most Americans, black and white, have some feelings of racism, as Ellison said – don’t get that defensive. Your hypothesis is implausible, highly speculative, if not presumptuous.



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  • Dan: How do you know what was felt, unless you’re omniscient or have spoken to these voters?

    On matters of opinion and generalization, we frequently hear demands for evidence that we can only answer with inferences from the big picture. “Political correctness” was a “bigly” talking point in Trump’s repertoire. In my view he used that talking point to his advantage. When Hillary appeared on stage with moms of black youth shot to death by the police under ambiguous circumstances, I speculate she was trying to energize the black vote into numbers that Obama won in 2008, 2012. The obvious downside is that blacks actually turned out in far fewer numbers to support her. I also speculate that the excesses of the BLM movement, shouted in “kill-the-pigs” sentiments during marches and realized in several assassinations of police officers, provoked a public backlash that also drew on revulsion for vile demonstrations of Social Justice Warriors on college campuses. The political correctness factor worked in favor of Donald Trump and against Hillary Clinton.



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  • Hi, Melvin,

    Excesses of BLM. There will always be excesses. That’s fodder for the other side. This is the inherent risk one takes when we choose to protest in large numbers. The other side, if you will, are looking for opportunities to characterize and demonize the whole organization (and the ones that are protesting the election) based on “excesses” which don’t necessarily represent the movement as a whole. What if you were black in the 60s and involved in a civil rights movement and were demonstrating and some bad apples shouted something like that? Would you want that to derail the whole movement? Don’t you see? —That’s what the reactionaries want!! “Look at those anarchists, those animals!” I already said that no protest can be antiseptic. That’s an unrealistic expectation.

    Here’s some news:

    Bannon, an alt-right conspiracy theorist, and now Trump’s chief adviser, has reached out to Le Pen, the extreme right wing nationalist (daughter of rabid anti-semite). Le Pen (National Front) will probably win election in 2017 now.

    This Trump victory, following Brexit, is the start of Nationalism (exclusive and oppressive nationalism) world wide.

    Trump will set us all back. We may be entering into a new era: a dystopian nightmare.

    What have we done??

    Bannon: “France is the place to be, with its young entrepreneurs [and] women of the family Le Pen” adding that “Marion Marechal-Le Pen is the new rising star”.



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  • Dan: Trump will set us all back. We may be entering into a new era: a dystopian nightmare.

    I appreciate everything you are saying and feeling. I hope with some justified optimism that progressive forces
    will check then reverse the dystopian nightmare. We can turn the tables. Believe.



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  • I have watched for a week and not commented. During that week, a riot broke out in Seattle. Trump declared that gay marriage was “ok with him”. Among other events.

    Olgun, i am NEVER steaming mad on this site or when i post NEVER. I have posted here since the first iteration of this website and have always been misconstrued as mad or angry. If this ellicited anger from me, I’d walk away and not come back.

    Alf1200 says:
    “Crooked, I am shocked. I thought you were one of the reasonable ones here. As a Veteran, I will always support protests. And yes, sometimes there are passionate people who do wrong things.
    But when Trump threatens their very existence, you want them to play by those rules?”

    I try to apply pure reason. I live by logic and it is the hardest thing to do to come to grips with the fact that the “side” you play on is compromised and their actions are a liability. It would be much easier to be a robotic follower. But, hypocrisy and “passionate people who do the wrong things” is NOT part of my paradigm. Wrong is wrong, even if it helps you. And, peddle you hyperbole (when he threatens their very existence) on a site that caters to such exaggeration. Trump is an asshole and a pig, but threatening Americans existence? C’mon. Your statement is intentionally overblown. And to answer your question, YES, I expect them to abide by the rules and laws of our land because they are openly declaring that they are BETTER THAN THE OTHER SIDE. Prove it.

    I aspire to be a fair and rational person and my vote against Trump was my voice. I support the rights of anyone who wants to raise their voice a second, third, hundredth time…. that is, until they behave the way Alf is defending and condoning. I just feel that there is a better way to handle this than to shit on my rights to show that yours have been compromised…. to destroy my property and to hold me hostage to demonstrate to a third party how wrong THEY are.

    These people (the trump voters) are making a declaration right in front of us…. And yes, some are racists. And those racists did vote for this pig out of racism. But to go the step further and label everyone who voted for him a racist….. Is….. well….. RACISM in action. And, instead of listening to their unprecedented voice and adjusting ourselves and our leadership, many of you want to simply shout them down with insults and your own hate. Trump was elected because of a cultural zeitgeist and if you simplify his victory down to “white people are all racist”, you are not only wrong and racist yourself, but doomed to lose election after election because EVOLUTION has left your dinosaur ass behind.

    Calling a person a racist for voting in their own perceived self interest is a bullshit thing to do and the tactics of the other side. And, quite frankly, if these and destruction of property, name calling, violence, and hate for anyone are the tactics you think are acceptable, then count me out.

    I am embarrassed by my affiliation with people who so quickly adopted the exact behavior they are railing against. It is truly an undesirable trait of mankind that we cannot seem to see our own shortcomings while trumpeting (pun intended) others shortcomings.

    Look, when you roll on the ground with dogs, you run the risk of getting up smelling like dog shit. And, well, many of you here stink.



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  • I’ll be honest, crooked. I don’t begin to understand this racist riff. I was under the impression most of the demonstration against Trump was about his use of racism to achieve his self serving ends. Were demonstrators specifically railing against Trump voters as racist and blaming them for the existence of Trump?

    For me the problems are the harms to be inflicted on the rest of humanity as we see with increasing clarity from the likes of Steve Bannon and Mark Ebell. Moderating Trump’s choices from the get go is what is still needed, by denying him any easy walkover changing anything about our society that takes his fancy. It may well be he has walked back a few of the areas he has seen pre-emptive opposition in.



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  • Olgun, i am NEVER steaming mad on this site or when i post NEVER. I
    have posted here since the first iteration of this website and have
    always been misconstrued as mad or angry.

    Crooked – this is a real question, not a bit of snark: you stated that since the time you began posting at this website you have always been misconstrued as mad or angry. My simple question is why do you think that is? I just searched a few of your responses and while I admittedly cherry picked (just within the last few weeks – I’m not that much of a masochist), it wasn’t hard at all and was kind of fun because there were (perhaps I’m slightly misconstruing here) mad/angry nasty bits in pretty much every post of yours. Or perhaps just the majority of them. A small sampling from various recent posts, literally all within the last few weeks:

    Well, boo-hoo Trump is president. So sad you couldn’t get your candidate elected. Maybe she’s dogshit.
    These protests are horseshit. The people are holding signs blaming caucasians. Are you fucking kidding me?
    She lost because she is an unelectable shit monger and she lost to the biggest piece of shit on the street.
    She is dogshit and the proof that i am right is that she LOST to dogshit.
    I do not give a rat’s furry ass about the laws or your silly preening religious definition of the world.
    You have had a thorough ass whipping and your opinion should be changed (especially since I see how smart and seemingly
    un-indoctrinated you are)….
    Really you fucking idiots, does the immaculate conception not factor into your opini…….
    Al Gore flew coast to coast and intercontinentally on a private jet while he told me to ride my fucking bike to work.

    Hmm, can’t imagine why ANYONE would think you’re mad/angry. These sound like the ravings of an exceedingly well balanced, rational gentleman. Ha. Sorry, that piece WAS snark. I enjoy your online persona (for the most part) crooked, but I can’t believe that you can self present as this uber logical/rational guy while not understanding why people think your personal default is mad/angry. 🙂



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  • Steven007,
    I write to win the argument. My writing is forceful and passionate. When i am taunted (Boo – hoo you were held in traffic) I shoot back with equal or more force (boo-hoo Trump is president). You have grabbed some of my writings and what you’ve failed to do is read “around” them to provide yourself with backstory and context.

    I do not mind you thinking that i am nasty or mean or harsh. i am just letting everyone know that at no point am I actually mad/angry. I guess everyone has a spectrum of “angry” and what I quantify as “angry” is much much more than snipping off some forceful words in support or condemnation of a topic.

    So, if you’d like to think of me as angry, go ahead. I just do not agree. Profanity and direct language does not constitute anger.

    IMO, anger is what I am seeing from all these “liberals” who condone violence and property destruction, who condone stepping on the constitution, as long as it’s done “in the name of their cause, (which is of course “RIGHT”).

    I am saddened by the complete lack of intellect in some of the responses and want to distance myself from the individuals who advocate such actions (which, again is not ALL people who think Trump is a lout not all protesters, but rather the subset who are actively shitting on the constitution to try to get what they want.)

    Phil,
    I am talking about a white protestor jumping into my face after saying “he is white, he probably voted for Trump”. I am talking about the actual signs that the protestors are carrying and the overwhelming message leaking from these protests that “a vote for Trump means the one who cast the vote is a racist”. I simply disagree with that sentiment and voiced my opinion. I disagree with many of my family members about politics and many of them voted for Trump,but it is insulting and dead wrong to broadly label these people as racists. It’s just not true.

    At no one in particular:
    And, while i am at it, I never realized that the liberals and the protestors and the left wing could not be wrong.
    I am sorry that I pointed out some hypocrisy and hatred emanating from the bastion of everything that is correct and can’t be challenged.

    One more thing. Earlier today I had to run an errand and this guy in a sports car went flying by me driving very very recklessly and way over the speed limit. To clearly demonstrate how wrong he was, I deliberately cut off an old lady and yelled at her out my window then, I drove on the wrong side of the road the whole way home. After all, I was just being another “passionate person who does something wrong.”

    Let’s evolve better ways to solve conflict and let our liberal mindset be the innovator of such sweeping change.



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  • Oh, and if you’d care to dig further back, we had a quite similar discussion regarding greenpeace boarding a private oil rig and violating the workers and company’s rights. Again, even though I side with greenpeace on the message of conservation and responsibility, I stood against their method of protest and that must have been a few years ago.

    If you are asserting that you are “better than that” you have to conduct yourself in ways that are “better than that”.



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  • Looking at the appointments Trump is making to his team, I think any “errors in Hillary Clinton’s ways” are going to pale into insignificance!

    I am reminded of the old adage, “elect/appoint monkeys – live in the jungle”!



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  • @crooked

    And win it you generally do. You did not disappoint, crooked. And to be clear, I personally do not think you’re mad/angry and indeed I get exactly what you just spelled out. I do read them in context; for example I certainly realized your taunt to Laurie was in response to her boo hoo to you. But I think you point out yourself that your profanity and “direct language” can be, and often is construed by others (not me) as anger. And since that has been the conjecture since you’ve been posting here according to you I just wanted to point out what I thought was fairly obvious.

    And I’m with you post election. Clearly not all Trump voters are racists. But I do believe many of them lack empathy. My vote for HRC was not for me per se; I am a privileged white male born in the US. The quintessential white privilege. No, my vote was for women, people of color (AA, Latino, etc), LGBT community, etc. They need more help than I do and they would have gotten (more) of it with an HRC administration. But hey, maybe sexual harassment laws will loosen and we can return to the days of Mad Men. You know, when America was great? Good times.



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  • Steven007,
    I get it (I have thick skin and understand that abrasive equates to angry).
    On a more important front, my vote was cast much the same as yours. I agree with your assessment of both the post election situation AND my writing style lending itself to people thinking I am an angry guy. But, i am not, I am far from it. My students would tell you that I am pretty easy going. The friends I’ve had for years and years would probably let you know that i am someone you are happy with “on your side” and someone that you are not so happy with when I’m not!!! I was always called fierce.
    I do not really care if my persona is seen as “angry guy” to any or all readers…. It is a kind of funny moniker. But, i just want people to know that i am not ever (or rarely) actually mad. I guess, more for my own edification than anything else.



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  • @crooked

    I feel you. I am actually a fairly optimistic glass half full kind of guy. But that’s been an evolution, to be honest. I was more cynical when I was younger. With maturity came nascent optimism. I now require less than ever before. It’s funny posting in forums like these. I use no avatar. You use what looks to me like an anthropomorphic estimation of the Xtian “god” stereotype doing the Dr. Evil thing with his finger. In large part none of us has any idea what we look like or what our lives are like except for what we can glean from certain posts. You described yourself as a substantial male in terms of size. I am as well, 6’2” and 245 lbs. Ray Lewis size and shape as I’ve been a serious lifter for years. You’re a scientist; a schoolteacher (correct me if I’m wrong). I am a scientist and a writer. One of my most inspirational teachers growing up was my HS anatomy teacher. He was an ex NY Giant football player and looked like he could still play; very intimidating. But also very smart. He didn’t exactly fit the stereotype. One day I saw him while I was out playing tennis. He was in tennis whites. It was a sight to behold. I got to know him fairly well and learned that he was a very well rounded individual. I liked that. I still do. No one guesses I’m a writer or a scientist. With my longish hair and muscular build, as well as youthful demeanor they typically guess I’m a teacher of some kind, or on good days a retired athlete. I’m still trying to shake the ‘retired’ aspect, ha.

    We will all survive this nauseating blip. I hope. I am not as pessimistic as Dan or alf. They may counter that they are more realistic. We shall see. But as has been stated many times, Trump’s base thought Obama would be a disaster. He wasn’t. We’ll hope for the same luck this time around.



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  • crookedshoes

    I appologize for baiting you with this:

    So sad you’re stuck in traffic. :’-( boo hoo

    Unbecoming.

    When you said this:

    Hilarious,
    Look at how many times it has now been said on this thread that “I don’t BELIEVE they are in the majority”… Believe! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…

    I actually did think that was hilarious. The new great atheist in-group insult: You said I believe!! That’s pretty funny.

    @86

    I hope it’s true that you’re not really mad. I don’t want you to be mad. I’m not mad either but you took me by surprise. I think we have much in common. My friends say the same thing about me.

    Years ago some rotten apples said mean things to me here that made me so angry I curled up on the couch and cried. My girls, teens at the time told me not to take shit from internet assholes. (Not saying you are one!) I have a thicker skin now. It’s all for the best.

    I’m glad you’re back.



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  • Laurie, Steven, Phil, Crooked, et al

    Everyone’s “mad.” That’s what got Trump in, Laurie. It was fodder for Bannon and his protégé. Shame ridden people mad at basically everything, at their own failures I am sure, at the “government” as a whole, at everything in sight; and they’re filled with impotent rage, are looking to blame and excoriate and humiliate others, rather than discriminate (which requires sensitivity, sober reflection, thought), and rather than look at their own shortcomings.

    I haven’t read all of today’s comments carefully, so maybe I am missing some nuances. But you don’t put down protesters. I am not entirely sure that there is much to gain by engaging those who are instinctively opposed to protest, whoever they may be. (The KKK has a right to protest, and we certainly do as well.) Protest is something you just do whether people like it or not, and in most cases you are protesting and rebelling against the grain. And as I said, and I’ll say it again, as people are hard of hearing: in every demonstration there will be disruption and ugliness. They are rarely antiseptic. If that is what one requires in a protest march or demonstration you will always have an excuse to condemn and mischaracterize and suppress. Those in power WANT protests to turn violent. They may even have a few disrupters on the payroll. Get it?

    Riots, an extreme form of protest, are the language of the unheard. (MLK) Military law is the language of totalitarianism (or fascism).

    Here’s what we’re dealing with so far. I am reposting some of this, as it is important.

    You know about the climate change skeptic already appointed. Sessions, if you don’t know, has been criticized for his long history of opposing civil rights. Sessions actually was denied a federal appointment as a judge by the Senate because of racist comments he made, from what I have read.

    WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump moved quickly on Friday to begin filling national security posts at the top echelons of his administration, announcing that he had tapped a group of hawks and conservative loyalists who reflect the hard-line views that defined his presidential campaign.

    Mr. Trump selected Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama, who has made cracking down on undocumented immigrants a signature issue, to be his attorney general, while installing Michael Flynn, a retired lieutenant general who believes Islamist militancy poses an existential threat, as his national security adviser. And as director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr. Trump selected Representative Mike Pompeo of Kansas, who harshly criticized Hillary Clinton during the House investigation of the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks on the United States diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya.

    This is an unmitigated disaster, and will be a bitter struggle (which can easily be lost) – for the survival of our democracy, for the rule of law, for due process, for our country, our planet. That struggle will involve protests.

    Steven 87

    “No, my vote was for women, people of color (AA, Latino, etc), LGBT community, etc.”

    That, in my view, is a vote for all of us. Stronger together. I voted for ME, for all of US. More at stake than what you listed, by the way – as I think I’ve made clear.



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  • crooked

    I still don’t get it. I’ve just spent half an hour sifting through pics of the protests to find any that give even a hint of being anti-Trump voter. Not a one. Might you have been just unlucky in your encounter, perhaps?

    I did like “We shall over-comb.”

    On the legitimate need for political protest at such a time, for those that can access it I recommend Adam Gopnick’s ten minute piece here,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082kmws

    Myself I think the new cohort of voters, the newly self identified, dispossessed, that tipped Trump over the winning line, were not in the least racist at root, but were incited to a group hatred that was circumstantially racist. Racist Republicans were just the same old same old.



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  • What’s wrong with being anti-Trump? I missed something. Trump, along with some acumen, is a clown, a fraud, a right wing puppet or demagogue and/or a possible autocrat, who is actually more reactionary than I ever thought and may destroy us all and permanently.

    What I fear most of all is a belligerent nationalism, an exclusive and oppressive nationalism, Phil.

    That is the umbrella that contains all the other dog whistles and promises and appeals.

    Nationalism, white Christian nationalism, is the real danger. That will be a threat to our freedom and even our physical safety.

    Pandering to racists, constituting a not insignificant percentage of voters, was just one part of the larger campaign operation, orchestrated by Bannon. Nor were the people sold on nationalism itself; they were sold on protectionism and the problem of immigration (real and imaginary). Bait and switch. Bannon understood that. Nationalism is too abstract and immaterial. But it is a real danger now.

    Hillary should have made a better case why the voters would have more to gain by voting democratic and making the case why a free market without regulations and oversight has never worked, and given them facts (2008) to back it up, should have exposed the lie of prosperity being dependent upon a free, unregulated market or trickle down. She needed to make it clear that Trump’s promise of helping the middle class and investing in infrastructure, while expanding the military budget and granting unprecedented tax breaks for those at the top, was probably a lie, unrealistic – and then explained precisely why. Love Trumps hate was an important message, but wasn’t enough. Granted.

    Crookedshoes:

    “I am talking about the actual signs that the protestors are carrying and the overwhelming message leaking from these protests that “a vote for Trump means the one who cast the vote is a racist”.

    Straw man! Straw man! Straw man! And if you have so much distrust and contempt for “the left”, sir, then read the National Review and vote Republican. It’s as simple as that. Nothing is perfect or monolithic; not “the left” and certainly not the far right.



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  • Dan

    I was talking about being anti Trump-voter (I mis-hyphened, perhaps). If that is what you were puzzled about? Demonstrations appeared very substantially directed at Trump and NOT his voters. This is different from crookedshoes’ experience. I wondered if he was just unlucky?

    As I’ve discussed elsewhere I believe Trump’s initial appeal was to the dispossessed (bypassed since the eighties, their companies’ increasing productivity, not reflected in any real improvement in living standards…a ballot box seemingly not plugged in to anything that makes a discernable difference.) These folk are as much Bernie’s folks. But the DNC screwed up. Loyal right wingers follow their red badges and despite whoever might have to get into bed with them. Trump held back the sheet invitingly.



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  • Phil

    Anti Trump-voters. Got it. These people should have been Bernie or Hillary supporters. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
    They are going to suffer the most. I do feel bad for them.
    Some of these voters, Phil, deserve to be severely criticized, for reasons that I have indicated. They are conservative, according to your definition of conservatism, or one of them: they are lazy, don’t read or investigate, and like to blame. That makes them stupid!!!!They are not just victims. Let’s just agree to disagree about that. Sanders spoke out about Trump, as did Hillary. Hillary adopted some important positions advocated by Sanders. The voters should have been more discerning. You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. Trump never explained how he would help these people. Hillary had a plan and it was very detailed and fact based. The DNC and their Clinton team could have done better, but how do you contend with fucking LIES!!!?? The people screwed up too!
    I am furious! (Not even sure if that comment was coherent. I am fuming.)
    Talk to you soon, Phil.



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  • Sessions is a bona fide racist!!! One of the last of the unreconstructed racists in politics. The others have died. A dying breed. But he’s now in the big time! Attorney general! What the hell is going on?

    By the way, he supported T from Day 1. So a lot of those voters, Phil, do deserve to be criticized. They know who Sessions is. They voted for a man who is allied with a bona fide racist.

    Plus, they believed everything Trump said, and didn’t look at the evidence or at history.

    Why is it that you always call me on what you consider to be my mistakes and errors but are so determined to let these voters off the hook? Must they be eternally defended as victims? That’s patronizing. Many of the T supporters represent the worst of America! I know these ministerial politicians are psychos, but there is pathology and degeneracy amongst the voters too.



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  • There is an aspect of the American personality which I haven’t previously touched on in my analyses of this election and which I hope some of the natives there can throw some light on for me. Ironically it’s actually about trumpetting, one’s own achievements, product, abilities etc. It’s something that British actors and screenwriters have mentioned in interviews over here about how things in Hollywood differ from UK film and tv.

    The Brits are naturally fairly self deprecatory and it’s certainly considered bad form to go around telling everyone how great you are. This appears not to be the case in the USA. If you’re trying to sell your movie and you’ve got 5 minutes in front of the studio mogul a yank would normally launch into hyperbole apparently about how brilliant everything is and how it’ll make millions at the box office. A brit would tend to say well we think it’s not too bad and hope you might like it if you have a look. This approach then gets strange looks from the mogul who asks “well if it isn’t that great why are you trying to sell it to me?”.

    It’s a fundamentally different approach to boastfulness and braggadocio. Trump spent a year telling everyone how great he was at everything from building walls to loving the bible. In the UK that would go down like a lead balloon, not least because it was all obviously lies. But I ask myself now, how much differently was this received in a country where the hard sell is the norm and people are expected to trumpet their own abilities?



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  • Arkrid,

    Exactly right.

    In the UK we do give rather a lot of credit to bumbling buffoons especially when they simply ‘fess. Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage make an art of the apology. Nigel, pint in hand, to reporter, “Oh lord, have we fncked up again?”



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  • Quentin Crisp (a famous Brit) once said that one difference between the British and the Americans is this: America is fascinated by the rich and famous, and partly because it makes them feel that they too can become rich and famous. The British people are also fascinated by celebrities, but in a different way; they differ from us in that rich and famous people make them fear that they’ll be left behind.



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  • Dan

    They are going to suffer the most. I do feel bad for them.

    Them and us. We are the dispossessed, the ones who have failed to profit since the eighties from the increased real wealth of our countries. Since Reaganomics it has been cleverly tricked out of us by a myriad different schemes that facilitate a trickle up rate of wealth flow teetering on the edge of subliminal.

    Job one. Fix it for us and them, reverse the flow. Make capital do more work, more real work. Improve the mode of feedback of our dissatisfactions to those we elect briefly to office. Hobble lobbying…. make it decent and transparent or really, really illegal.

    Stop obsessing about people’s action’s and deal with their experience of the world. The right wing are always with us, stop letting them be goaded into a panic attacks, f’rinstance. Form a plan and share it.

    Sanders still good



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  • Phil

    People like me will probably (and I say probably) suffer less (financially) as I am fairly well off. That’s all I meant by “them”. I am not a disenfranchised Trump voter. Nor am I struggling to make ends meet. But we are all in the same boat. I get that. Money is only one problem, however. Increased surveillance, loss of civil rights, the diminution of the right to dissent, the suppression of free speech and scholarship… All of this is likely to happen.

    I am frightened or depressed about fifty percent of the time now. I foresee a downward spiral. Trump will try to take us back to pre FDR times. The people he has hired or considered hiring indicates, as laurie said, that he will be worse than we could ever have imagined, is a cruel and vicious autocrat interested only in power and his own personal wealth, and radical in the worst sense; he will take us back to the year zero. Social Darwinism will prevail. Bannon is behind it all, I think.

    And another war, a war to end all wars, may be started. This could really be the end. Really really the end.

    Maybe I am overreacting. Maybe nothing that bad will happen. I go back and forth.

    Sanders still good, yes. And Warren, and others. I still like Hillary. They will probably prosecute her. They are vicious and want to generate blood lust. A good way to consolidate and organize.

    (Personal remark: Perhaps my family history has something to do with this crisis I am going through. I am the child of a refugee from Nazi Germany.)

    I feel like praying – and crying.

    Have a good week-end.



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  • Even as a petty capitalist I feel the upward pull on the pounds sterling in my wallet to drift up the way rather than trickle down enough. Its rather as if money has its own gravity and once big enough clumps of it get together, it can grow quite naturally, into a good enough sized set of stable planets.

    I think the best therapy for anxiety is to use the fear and the anger to do something.

    All the great socialist thinkers were privileged bourgeois folk. Only the well enough off with a conscience have the capacity to change whole cultures.

    Pause the Singer, buy the Sanders, and relax in the presence of a focused, decent mind that astonishingly for the US stood a real chance of election to POTUS (given the fact of the newly self-identified dispossessed). How much more chance will 2020 bring to such a person?

    Good weekend? I’ll try. You too.



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  • Crooked

    I didn’t mean to portray you as bad person with my comments. It was more on the point of logic as Steven007 has already made. When I first read your response to Laurie, I actually thought it was aimed at the protesters on the street and you had made some grammatical errors/typos that did not sufficiently exclude her from your harsh comments. I was waiting for a correction but soon realised I read it wrong…twice, when other posts came in.

    I write to win the argument

    I think the conversation would have lasted longer with more of your points put across if I didn’t feel the need to finish your above quote with; at all costs?

    I spent ten years writing on the internet on a particular forum with at least five of them in anger using harsh words to make my point. I felt I had undone all the good work from the previous years. I started knowing that there would be organised groups who would want to drag me in that direction and still….For me, it is too easy to fall into that hole and am sometimes tempted back and it makes no sense.



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  • Dan

    Even those of us who are financially comfortable need to be worried. All we need now is for the stock market and the housing market to tank (as I’ve said elsewhere) and the middle class will be reduced to pecuniary rubble. Job layoffs will be the coup de grace since our health insurance is mostly linked to our employer.

    One thing that strikes me from conversations with our European friends and from the time that I’ve been lucky enough to live in Europe as an outsider, is that they have a substantial safety net built in for the public that America is entirely lacking. It’s very shocking to watch a middle economic class family lose everything they have when main wage earners get laid off from their jobs. A lifetime of hard work and dedication wiped out with one pink slip. It’s very difficult or impossible for these families to recover from financial disaster.

    If they screw up the economy badly enough then the ripple effect will be felt by our middle class, the lower economic class (because they always get the shit end of the stick) and I suppose the ripple will grow into a tsunami that belts the rest of the world as well.

    I know we will have a hell of a fight to keep what reproductive rights that we have now. It hasn’t been a perfect picture in the past years but now the frothing at the mouth rabid control freaks will have full license to inflict forced childbirth on everyone. I know most women will come together to form an uprising if Roe is in imminent danger. This will shock the young apathetic women who have only known a life of choice. Also the older generations who just don’t believe that it could possibly be undone. Naive head in the sand types. I welcome that fight. The economy however, is a more frightening disaster that can do severe damage very quickly and I honestly have no idea what to do about that.

    I’m thinking seriously of selling my house in the spring market while prices are still high. If they still are high at that point. Liquidate while I still can. I’m bracing for the worst.



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  • @dan (#99)

    Dan, as I said in another thread it comes down to empathy. You have it in spades. I do too. So does Phil and crooked and Arkrid and Laurie (and many others). We care about others. My vote was less for my interests and more for others. I too won’t suffer too many indignities in this fiasco (I hope). As RD said in a completely different context, we’re the lucky ones.

    Sessions is a monster and it’s irresponsible of Drumpf to give him the nod, but as you noted he’s a DT loyalist and in his world that means everything. Well, we’ll see as he’s currently meeting with Mitt Romney, someone I did not vote for and someone who made his distaste for DT well known, but someone who now seems like a voice a reason amongst the political deplorables. If someone would have told me 4 years ago that I’d be rooting for Mitt Romney to be Secretary of State I wouldn’t have been able to dream up the scenario that gave that rise. This whole thing is turning into the Bad News Bears of politics. Goodness…



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  • I just read that my characterization of “if you vote for Trump you are a racist” as a strawman argument.
    Is it?

    Was I singled out as a Trump voter because of my skin color? (again, BTW, by a caucasian — this is NOT about race to me).

    Go to PZ Myers site and look at the rhetoric going on there and tell me that a vote for Trump is NOT being heralded as a racist vote.

    Here’s a headline “There’s no such thing as a good Trump voter”. (The Federalist)

    Here’s Van Jones calling all Trump voters racist on CNN:
    http://www.yesimright.com/this-cnn-host-calls-trump-voters-racist-and-gets-knocked-out-on-live-tv/

    Here’s Hillary Clinton calling Trump voters racists:
    http://gothamist.com/2016/08/25/clinton_trump_alt_right.php

    Here is Slate’s Jamelle Bouie’s article entitled “There’s no such thing as a good Trump voter” (maybe he stole the headline — maybe Trump’s wife is his editor)

    Where he says
    Whether Trump’s election reveals an “inherent malice” in his voters is irrelevant. What is relevant are the practical outcomes of a Trump presidency. Trump campaigned on state repression of disfavored minorities. He gives every sign that he plans to deliver that repression. This will mean disadvantage, immiseration, and violence for real people, people whose “inner pain and fear” were not reckoned worthy of many-thousand-word magazine feature stories. If you voted for Trump, you voted for this, regardless of what you believe about the groups in question. That you have black friends or Latino colleagues, that you think yourself to be tolerant and decent, doesn’t change the fact that you voted for racist policy that may affect, change, or harm their lives. And on that score, your frustration at being labeled a racist doesn’t justify or mitigate the moral weight of your political choice.
    @
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/there_is_no_such_thing_as_a_good_trump_voter.html

    So, in the last sentence he says that you can;t even be mad at being called a racist…. Unfair and unbelievable.
    I found these after googling “headlines Trump voters racist”…. You googled “protestors signs” or something similar.

    @Dan
    I guess I did say that it was the “signs of the protestors”, so I understand why you went that way. I was wrong. But if you dig a little further, i think you’ll see that one of the clear narratives, post election is, in fact that if you voted for Trump, you cast a racist vote and thus, you are a racist.

    I hardly think my stance is that of setting up a strawman, but rather, the media exposure that i am subject to stresses things that the media exposure that you are subject to does not. But, a quick, cursory google search will clearly demonstrate that I am not making shit up to just knock it down.

    @ LaurieB,
    I think we are all very much alike, here and that’s a big part of why we gravitate to a spot like this. I agree with so much of what goes on here that, I guess it is strange for a dissenting voice to be heard from me. But, i do not approve of these protests for their timing, their random message, and most of all, for their clearly shitting on the constitutional rights anyone who disagrees with them. It’s bad form. I am consistent on this, I completely understand the sentiment behind the protests, but think there is a better way. BTW, 50% of the people arrested in the Portland protest-turned-riot did NOT VOTE. careful who you allow to speak for you. No one speaks for me.

    @Olgun,
    What other way to win is there than “at all costs”… Isn’t that what the fucking protestors are doing? don’t you support them doing exactly that? AND they are actually committing ACTS of violence. You want to shit on me for being a forceful writer? For telling it (IMO) like it is? WOW. I do not want to be insulting, but I feel like you’re way out of line on this one.

    And, @Steven,
    My avatar is Charles Darwin posing as Dr. Evil. I found it years ago and thought it was funny.



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  • Oh, and perhaps lost in all this is that Pence (IMO) is a much much much bigger asshole, hate filled prick than Trump because Trump just yaps and yaps and yaps… Pence has tried to enact actual statutes aimed at LGBT folks and will probably try to do such again now that he has been validated through the election process.



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  • Steven007 #103
    Nov 19, 2016 at 2:06 pm

    I too won’t suffer too many indignities in this fiasco (I hope). As RD said in a completely different context, we’re the lucky ones.

    It seems that those who trusted Trump in the past were much less lucky – with this class action covering many who were affected!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38021820

    Donald Trump has settled three Trump University lawsuits for $25m (£20m), the New York Attorney General has said.

    The US president-elect was being sued by former students who paid $35,000 (£28,000) for real estate “secrets” from his “hand-picked” instructors.



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  • @crooked (#104)

    Agreed, Pence is a bonafide faith based politician. Not only did he try to enact anti LGBT laws (he opposes same sex marriage AND civil unions; he was booed last evening during his bizarre appearance of the play Hamilton), he also tried to pass legislation stating that women who get abortions must hold a funeral for the embryo! He is also quoted as stating that “global warming is a myth”. Hmm, wonder where I’ve heard that? Just add China. The guy is a loon…



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  • Seems we meet in the middle with your reasoning in your last post to me Crooked. No one wants to be shit on and points must be made at all costs!!



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  • Olgun,
    I get it, no worries.

    And, Steven007, it is very hard to wrap my head around it, but the bigger fear would be if something happened to Trump (and he was incapacitated) and Pence was bumped into the presidency. That guy is dangerous. Like I said before, Trump is a racist windbag, but as far as I can tell, he’s a poodle. He yaps a bunch and might bit you, but it’s your ankles you gotta protect. Pence is a fucking pit bull and a full out crazy asshole.



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  • No one knows for sure what Trump is or how dangerous he is. Everyone is just guessing. Some are educated guesses; a lot of wishful thinking, speculation. Here is my informed opinion based on everything he has said and done: he is about as bad as you can get: a thin-skinned, unstable, unfit liar, a fraud, a scammer, a narcissist, an autocrat, a cruel and despicable business man who will undo all of the progressive and humane policies and programs that took years to put in place. He wants (and may not get) a new gilded age, no safety net, a new judge who will help repeal Roe, no SS (privatized), no medicare (privatized), no public education (defunded and privatized through vouchers), no regulations or oversight (Dodd-Frank is dead), no affordable health insurance as it will be privatized; he hates opposition, will or may violate protocol, will or may start a war with Iran if he gets rid of the Iran Deal, treats the press like a dictator treats the press, loves loyalty, loves war, is a hypocrite (is already allied with lobbyists), denies climate change… We are talking about a monster.

    (He excoriated the cast of Hamilton and ordered them via a tweet to apologize, after a tasteful speech and entreaty was delivered to Pence after the show ended. That isn’t good.)

    Oh no, I hear someone say. That was all just campaign rhetoric; he’s a pussycat. No, he’s an authoritarian and a demagogue who appealed to hate and ignorance, and used propaganda and lies to get elected. And he hired Pence! And appointed Sessions!

    We shall see what unfolds.



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  • crooked,

    You said

    I am talking about the actual signs that the protestors are carrying and the overwhelming message leaking from these protests that “a vote for Trump means the one who cast the vote is a racist”

    then

    You googled “protestors signs” or something similar.

    So you are entirely correct. That is exactly what I looked for.

    I also observed that they probably misread your body language approaching them. Your disapproval was surely on your face. No? There’s no telling a white voter’s stance otherwise.



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  • I further think that the slur of racist to the dispossessed cohort voters (with whom I have every sympathy) and may very well have not an actively racist bone in their body, is entirely that they have seemingly made themselves de facto racists. They have displayed a disappointing set of relative personal values that made their voting stance possible.

    This will be entirely a judgement call. I think for Social Justice Warriors who will care only about harms to others will call these things first. I think immigration has helped the UK on balance and particularly in my areas of interest (work and locale). But even I can see that rates exceeding infrastructure capacity is a problem that needs addressing for all of Europe, driving some of the the most benign countries (like Denmark) to the right. In their shoes with a 78% total tax burden they see their years of personal investment in the country shared out to newcomer economic migrants. (The long term requirement is of course that rich nations help lift poor nations out of poverty for their own wellbeing and management of economic migrant pressures.)

    The US invests comparatively little in its people via its taxes. So it speaks volumes on how desperate folk must be to fend off such migrants……or how indifferent folk are to outside others.



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  • Glad to hear your more nuanced critique of the people who voted this man in, Phil.

    I fear that Trump will crush dissent with violence and savagery. If he can (and I think he can) he will.



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  • Judging by Trump’s picks so far and his continued inability to stop tweeting shite it’s definitely looking less likely this is going to be in any way a good 4 years. The man wouldn’t know “presidential” if it bit him on the arse. I think there’s a lot of people who didn’t like Obama who are going to miss the hell out of him when the grim reality of his replacement shows its true face.



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  • Olgun #114

    I find that an atrociously facile article. from an essentially libertarian economic perspective. A Jewish writer can justly take pride in how oppressed Jewish communities could flourish given a cultural history of booklearning and portable wealth. The Italians might have gained not a little from crooked friends in high places, but at least like the Irish, in a generation could disappear from too obvious sight.

    I have no doubt that a bunch of Democrats are SJWs with knee-jerk and wrong judgements. But few academics, say, would not realise the appalling over-simplification of her message. Amygdalas work quite prior to our best moral selves. And voluntary migrants have cultural legacy to create early uplift. Libertarianism is cruel precisely because of its simple minded view of the human mind and its cultures.

    Her message…Africans (sic) are lazy! One of Anthony Trollope’s less savoury legacies.



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  • Phil,
    I did write that and then I did say that I was wrong.

    I am not sure if I approached with disgust, distaste, or whatever on my face. I am sure, however, that I am constitutionally free to move about as i wish and my protected right was impinged upon repeatedly by these “peaceful” protestors. Be it laying in the middle of the street like a damn infant or screaming in my face, these things are shitting on me and my rights. AND, I do not care if these people are saying the slogans that you endorse…. AND, i do not care if you declare them “peaceful”… A smiling asshole can be just as invasive and insidious as a frowning one.

    @ whomever:

    Again, i do not condone, endorse, support Trump (and especially not Pence), but i will not loan my name to or be a party to, the smiling, peaceful stomping on the rights of people who have nothing to do with the issue.

    This is simply wrong. I do not mind the people who gathered at Trump tower to bring the message to him. But, over the weekend a crowd gathered to chant “fuck Trump” at the white house.
    He doesn’t live there yet. What they did there was interrupt Obama’s dinner! This is ineffective and silly. It is impotent foot stomping and I wouldn’t care a rat’s ass ….until it steps on my feet.

    I’ve grown tired of defending my stance. you all know what it is and either you cannot endorse it because you are so offended and angry or you can’t endorse it because you are committed to a cause or whatever, I have said my piece on this and if many of you would wake up and see that MY DEMOGRAPHIC IS THE ONE THAT BEAT YOU IN THE ELECTION, and try to make sense of me and my stance, then maybe you’d not be doomed to repeat the same storyline over and over.

    But, no, berate me. Shout me down. Act like I am the problem here. When in fact the problem has been elected ON YOUR WATCH. But, do not grow, do not evolve. Status quo is exactly what the Democrats need and your inflexible droning is going to ensure that it stays that way.



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  • Olgun, I glanced at this thread just now. Why would you post that article? It’s dreadful and simplistic. Typical Fox News type argument: “we (liberals and Democrats) think this about you, therefore you have this problem and we on the right are on the side of reason, decency, and the people, etc..” That’s manipulative, libertarian, right-wing crap!

    Is everyone cracking up now? I suppose a lot of people will be falling in line now like good little obedient (frightened) storm troopers.

    The Trump supporters want Hamilton shut down because the audience booed Pence or something.

    You want to see a violation, Crooked? Wait until Trump sends out the military or the para military to silence dissent.



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  • Crooked

    The very greatest achievement of the US constitution and the courts defending it is freedom of speech.

    The societies and people I will admire most are those that can tolerate the maximum amount of the stuff.

    Societies that teach their kids not to take offence waaaaaay before teaching them not to give it, get my vote every time. By not taking offence, rather than meekly seeking never to give it, we stand to hear something to our advantage, one way or another. Training kids to shut up and mind their lip is the winding down path to safe spaces and suppressed views and feelings.

    Sorry. Missed your cancellation of the comment…



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  • 119

    Okay.

    These Tweets about the musical Hamilton does not bode well for the future. The SOB elect is harassing the damned theater because a few members booed at Pence and because a speech, a beautiful, short speech, was read to Pence after the show ended.

    Plus there’s this registry issue now. (Some say it isn’t a registry.) That could lead to internment camps.

    Last week, Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach told Reuters that the Trump transition team focused on immigration was considering using an executive order to bring back the post-Sept. 11 National Security Entry-Exit Registration system. Kobach helped President George W. Bush create the registry, which the Justice Department suspended in 2011.



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  • Crookedshoes, others

    Right now people are protesting in DC. I turned on Fox News, and of course the protesters are being ridiculed and put down. “Why don’t they help someone? it’s Thanksgiving.” And “Look at them. They’re breaking things. Someone should get them to stop.” Just like I said. The Republicans don’t like protesting, don’t seem to respect it (unless they’re doing it). That’s undemocratic. It’s sick. Such scumbags. They never stop. I just switched the channel. What’s wrong with protesting? It’s a great thing to do. I should be there.

    I am sorry you had a bad experience with some annoying protesters, Crooked, but we have to protest, right?

    Fox News, the Alt-right, Trump…. I am sick of it all.

    Protest we must.



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  • “The object of efficient totalitarian states, as George Orwell understood, is to create a climate in which people do not think of rebelling, […] The totalitarian state achieves this control, Arendt wrote, by systematically crushing human spontaneity, and by extension human freedom. It ceaselessly peddles fear to keep a population traumatized and immobilized. It turns the courts, along with legislative bodies, into mechanisms to legalize the crimes of state.” –Chris Hedges

    (I know you don’t like Hedges, Phil, but he does get it right sometimes. Man, is he a downer. He makes Chomsky seem like a PollyDan…er, pollyanna.)



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