Group calls on city to remove Ten Commandments monument

Jan 10, 2018

By Tripp Stelnicki

A nonprofit organization in Madison, Wis., is calling for removal of a Ten Commandments monument from a Santa Fe city park, saying the 6-foot-tall granite tablet is an “inappropriate and unconstitutional” remnant of the Cold War era.

“The government has no business telling citizens which god they must have, how many gods they must have, or that they must have any god at all,” the Freedom from Religion Foundation said Tuesday in a statement.

The group calls itself the nation’s largest association of atheists and agnostics.

The longstanding Ten Commandments monument sits in front of a fire station in Ashbaugh Park on Cerrillos Road.

But the structure was something of a mystery even to high-ranking city officials before The New Mexican wrote about it in October. They variously said they knew little about the religious marker’s origin or why it had been placed on city land.

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44 comments on “Group calls on city to remove Ten Commandments monument

  • @OP – “The government has no business telling citizens which god they must have, how many gods they must have, or that they must have any god at all,” the Freedom from Religion Foundation said Tuesday in a statement.

    . . . . . or which versions of the commandments from various relions they should have!

    http://www.wsfa.com/story/421272/how-many-versions-of-the-ten-commandments-are-there-

    1. How many versions of the Ten Commandments are there?

    The Bible actually contains two complete sets of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 and Deut. 5:6-21).
    In addition, Leviticus 19 contains a partial set of the Ten Commandments (see verses 3-4, 11-13, 15-16, 30, 32), and Exodus 34:10-26 is sometimes considered a ritual decalogue.

    2. True or false — the Golden Rule is one of the Ten Commandments.

    False. The so-called “Golden Rule” (“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”) doesn’t appear in the Old Testament but in the New Testament (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31).

    5. Which of the commands did Jesus consider the most important?

    None of them and all of them!
    When asked what the greatest commandment was (Matt. 22:34-40; Mark 12:28-34), Jesus actually quoted the Shema, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind” (Deut. 6:5) and Lev. 19:18, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Although neither of these are in the Ten Commandments, they summarize their content.
    “Love God” is equivalent to the first four commandments, and “love your neighbor” is equivalent to the last six.

    ^=^=^=^=^=^=^

    Then there are the differing Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, and Protestant versions of the 10 ?, 12 ?, commandments, where the Catholics notably omit the references to idolatry, and the Islamic versions are notable by their elaborated verbosity!

    https://undergod.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000824#3

  • But rogeroney, the meaning’s in the colon.

    Exodus 20, 4/5 Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven thing, or any likeness …or that is in the water under the earth:

    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them…

    Experts in biblical exegesis argue, in my opinion correctly, that the sin is not in the making, but in the bowing down thereunto. Here endeth the lesson.

  • If they want to follow commandments why they do not follow the last revelation Koran….bible and thorat were corrupted..only the last revelation is true or false…

  • God exist #6
    Jan 12, 2018 at 5:45 am

    If they want to follow commandments
    why they do not follow the last revelation Koran….bible and thorat were corrupted..
    only the last revelation is true or false…

    The American issue in this discussion, is the misuse of public land and public funds, to promote a particular religion in preference to others.

    Anybody can put lists of their own commandments in their own houses, gardens, mosques, or churches, – but not on public land at public expense.

  • I agre..they have corrupted god s revelations and they pretend protecting and promoting commandments….Who knew really what were the really revelated ten commandmants….

  • God exist #9

    Yes.

    Morality is only morality if it is what you choose for yourself without coercion, threats of hell or withheld love etc.

    Obedience can never be the start of a moral thought or intention.

  • God exist #8
    Jan 12, 2018 at 6:40 am

    Who knew really what were the really revelated ten commandments….

    As my links @#2 show, there are various versions, with each group of believers claiming their’s are THE correct ones.

    Atheists come at this from a different angle.
    Their morality is about honest relationships between humans, and human welfare.
    Not about pleasing someone’s version of a god, which is implanted in the heads of particular groups of indoctrinated believers or following some ancient texts!

  • God exist #12
    Jan 12, 2018 at 9:02 am

    before submission to the lord

    While we do respect civil laws of the countries where we live, those like me, don’t do “submissions” to lords, priests, rabbis, imams or gods, and will criticise those who make damaging rulings which affect other people!

  • If you do not submit to the lord …the creator….God…you are surely submitting to other things without knowing it ..it could be money, desire, or even your will….you must not submit to priests, rabbis,or imams….they are nothing but humans….the submmission is only to the supreme creator that yor are away from..

  • @ #6 God exist

    If they want to follow commandments why they do not follow the last
    revelation Koran

    So-called ‘revelations’ are ten-a-penny, my little deluded muslim apologist. The Mormons got theirs long after the Arabs.

  • Mr. (Or Ms.) God Exist. Can we discuss what a “tautology” is?

    Or does this statement make sense to you? “Circles are round because they’re circles.”

  • God exist #5
    Jan 12, 2018 at 11:45 am

    (From the Evolution Will Change How You See The World Thread:-)

    If we evolve from shrimps…why they are still living among us….

    We didn’t evolve from shrimps.
    The insects evolved from shrimp-like ancestors, and so did the modern shrimps and prawns.

    Humans evolved from chordate worms, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and apes, while other modern organisms evolved from other branches of the evolutionary tree of life.

    When evolutionary trees branch, just because one branch takes a particular form, that dies not mean all the other branches die! Some may go extinct, but the rest make up the millions of soecies which live on the Earth at the present time.

    Evolutionary trees of life are the basis of all biological and medical classification of species. – So anyone who has studied ANY biology at high school or above, should understand them!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree

    A phylogenetic tree or evolutionary tree, is a branching diagram or “tree” showing the inferred evolutionary relationships among various biological species.

    Many earlier attempts at constructing phylogenetic trees have been up-dated in the light of DNA evidence.

  • Eric Johnston #16
    Jan 12, 2018 at 11:31 am

    Or does this statement make sense to you? “Circles are round because they’re circles.”

    Ah! but “interpreted” reading through faith blinkers, they CAN BE square triangular circles! 🙂

    Remember – the more ludicrous the belief, the stronger the faith that is demonstrated by believing it – and the more frequently and with the greater intensity which is required to maintain it by constant re-assertion! !

    Really feeble views have to be regularly reasserted several times a day! 🙂

  • when I mention religion …I am referring to the heavenic religions…other are not even we call them religions…they are only three revelations: the religions vestiges the bible and the thorat..and the last revelation koran…

  • @God exist #19

    they are only three revelations

    How dare you ignore the Mormons. They will send two polite well-dressed young men to your door to explain the errors of your ways.

  • God exist #19
    Jan 12, 2018 at 6:07 pm

    when I mention religion …I am referring to the heavenic religions…other are not even we call them religions…they are only three revelations:

    On this site we usually refer to those 3 as the “Abrahamic religions”.

    I have a comment and links – over here, which explain their origins and the Canaanite ancestry of the Abrahamic god, – who started out as various forms of one god of many, before his Israeli priests killed off the competitors:

    https://www.richarddawkins.net/2017/12/americas-new-religion-fox-evangelicalism/#li-comment-229544

    Like other people of the Ancient Near East Canaanite religious beliefs were polytheistic, with families typically focusing on veneration of the dead in the form of household gods and goddesses, the Elohim, while acknowledging the existence of other deities such as Baal and El, Asherah and Astarte.

    There are of course many present world religions, (Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, etc.) and there were also many in the past (Gods of Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Aztecs, Incas, etc.) so it is rather limiting to ignore the social effects of these cultures in the lands where they dominate(d).

  • @ #21 Alan4Discussion

    I have a comment and links – over here, which explain their origins
    and the Canaanite ancestry of the Abrahamic god, – who started out as
    various forms of one god of many, before his Israeli priests killed
    off the competitors:

    Muslims claim the quran’s ‘allah’ is the same creator god who ‘covenanted’ with ‘Abraham’, but the quran portrays ‘allah’ as both more powerful and more remote than the yahweh of Jewish scripture, perhaps modelled on the supreme deity of an arab pantheon, and also as a universal deity, as is the Christian adaptation.
    It’s clear this was an artful attempt to co-opt the best traditions of whatever offshoot of abrahamic beliefs muhammad was raised in with the pagan Arab beliefs he needed to accomodate, in order to gain local acceptance. The rise of the islamic religion is of course intimately tied in with the parochial politics and the greater ambitions of its founder.

  • Allah is a propper name of god..the same god of jews and christians….but the Bible and Torah were corrupted….and were send to the jewish people only…..the last revelation was send to all mankind the Koran….surely the easy way for many of you is to reject the existence of messengers…as some did with Adam and Noah…..claiming that they do not exist….but what to do with recent messengers that we know their existence historically…then any interpretation other than messengers is well accepted…..but you could not assert any attribute to them other than false or true….they were the best men that earth had never encoutred…. Koran : “Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah’s?”

  • Ignorants…surely because of fear take gods….but they are nothing besides the almighty God….who was the one and will the one the owner of the day of judgment….and any god taken beside Allah will fuell hell…..Koran : “Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!
    98. إِنَّكُمْ وَمَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ حَصَبُ جَهَنَّمَ أَنتُمْ لَهَا وَارِدُونَ
    If these had been gods, they would not have got there! but each one will abide therein.
    99. لَوْ كَانَ هَؤُلَاءِ آلِهَةً مَّا وَرَدُوهَا وَكُلٌّ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

  • We can take it, Alf. We should be happy to see such lapses from evidenced reason and decent into ad hominem from one deploring ad hominem, licensing our disinterest. May it stay on the record as the disgrace it is.

    God exist. Take care with the preaching, though. Copy and paste from sources that have no evidence in their support will not win anyone’s engagement here and repetition only increases the chance of moderator removal of them.

    May I suggest you copy and paste less and explain more. Take a quote as you see fit and explain it as one human to another. We are atheists. Why should the alleged opinions of just one faith’s god mean anything to us? You need to think how better to engage us. You started well…

  • God exist #23
    Jan 13, 2018 at 5:05 am

    surely the easy way for many of you is to reject the existence of messengers…as some did with Adam and Noah…..claiming that they do not exist…

    These men may or may not have existed, and the “messages” in their heads may or may not be from them, or may be made up by subsequent story tellers.
    What is clear, is that they are fanciful stories, with negligible credibility. There was no “first man” in the slow transition from ape ancestors, and no retrospectively cloned woman. Noah if he existed outside of fiction, was not hundreds of years old, and the stars, planets, Earth and Moon were not formed in the order given in the Book of Genesis.

    but what to do with recent messengers that we know their existence historically…then any interpretation other than messengers is well accepted…..but you could not assert any attribute to them other than false or true…

    Science does not see interpretations restricted to two simplistic black or white options. Strongly believed messages, voices, and visions, in human heads, are well known to have causes in psychological malfunctions, – even when they are not simply made up stories, used by leaders to impress or manipulate populations.

    “Interpretations” are the job of psychoanalysts and psychiatrists.

    “My big powerful god will get you if you don’t obey me”, does impress and frighten children and indoctrinated followers, but that does not mean there is any truth in the claims, or that people making such claims merit leadership roles.

    ..and the followers of every religion claim their god(s) are the “right” one(s)! The indoctrinated delusions in the dominating tribalist core of their mammalian brains, would not allow them to think otherwise.

    The knowledge of the world and the operation of technologies, food production and transport, is not derived from introspective revelations of mystics!
    It is derived from methodical scientific investigations and careful testing with repeated checking for consistent results.
    If any knowledge derived from mystic revelations on rare occasions, turns out to be correct, that is most likely due to coincidence, but is more likely to be the result of cherry-picked retrospective reporting, or misinterpretation by means of wishful thinking (as in the case of the Vatican’s list of Catholic Saint’s “miracles”).

    However modern medicine does recognise “revelations” :-

    http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/cme/auditory-hallucinations-psychiatric-illness

    Throughout history, auditory hallucinations have been construed as evidence of communication with divine powers, although contemporary medical models often view them as undesirable and a sign of mental illness.
    In psychiatry, auditory hallucinations carry considerable weight in the diagnostic process, so there is a clear need for clinicians to have a greater understanding of the multiple facets of this phenomenon.

    Auditory hallucinations are false perceptions of sound. They have been described as the experience of internal words or noises that have no real origin in the outside world and are perceived to be separate from the person’s mental processes.1
    Auditory hallucinations have veridical perceptual qualities in the sense that individuals are often convinced of the objective reality of the experience.
    In most cases, auditory hallucinations are unintentional, intrusive, and unwanted. Affected individuals may or may not have insight into the hallucinations.
    A person with insight will acknowledge that the experience is abnormal and will report less interference with daily activities than a person with no insight.

    This article provides an overview of the characteristic features of auditory hallucinations in psychiatric illness. The assessment and differential diagnosis of auditory hallucinations, recent theoretical frameworks, and treatment options are also briefly discussed.

  • when I mention Ignorants…I mean ancient civilisations who took gods because of fear….and the ignorance of religion…

  • I had patients with auditory hallucinations…even without psychiatric illness….even migraine could do that….but messengers are far away from that….smart healthy individuals….the human elite…

  • God exist #29
    Jan 13, 2018 at 6:50 am

    I had patients with auditory hallucinations…even without psychiatric illness….even migraine could do that….but messengers are far away from that…. smart healthy individuals… .the human elite…

    At least according to their fans followers and servant scribes, who wrote up the stories later!

    However when descriptions of mystic revelations are examined, there are very clear parallels with present day cult leaders, psychiatric illness, and their dedicated cult followings of unquestioning believers!

    Religious supernatural “interpretations” of psychiatric conditions, are well known in religions, including major world religions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Amorth

    The Reverend Gabriele Amorth, SSP (1 May 1925 – 16 September 2016) was an Italian Roman Catholic Priest and an exorcist of the Diocese of Rome who claimed to have performed tens of thousands of exorcisms over his half a dozen plus decades as a Catholic Priest.

    In October 2000, it was reported he had performed over 50,000 exorcisms (which ranged from “a few minutes” to “several hours” in length).[5] In March 2010, he said that the number had increased to 70,000 . By May 2013 he said he had performed 160,000 exorcisms in the course of his ministry.

    Do you have any material evidence that those quoted in the Koran are any different to the thousands of others who make similar claims for other religious “revelations” as a badge of authority and leadership?

  • When reading some of revelations including the Bible and the Torah, there is no mystery, only human writing otherwise with Koran in arabic , it is supernatural giving evidence that is from God they are God s words

  • Ge

    How do you explain the similarities with older Egyptian, say, stories and the “revelations” of the three abrahamic religions?

  • God exist.

    So the last Abrahamic messenger and Prophet, is of the human elite and to be trusted?

    Joseph Smith, called by angels, to the spot and was handed the final part of the Abrahamic story, was of sound mind in your opinion?

    You would agree that such messengers must stand to be more fully trusted if they have nothing to gain from professing the message to others? Indeed God would ensure that his messengers actually suffer for their claims, surely, to underwrite its seriousness?

    Myself, I take the evidenced claims about Hallucinations from Professor Oliver Sacks and the association of the religious with the genius creativity of the schizotypal brain from Professor Robert Sapolsky. I will gladly inform you of their findings.

  • it is supernatural giving evidence that is from God they are God s words

    Very well, God Exist. According to your “truth” one can only conclude that the god you speak of is a homosexual. And since your creation “evidence” was brought to you by these “messengers” one of those messages says that mankind was created using clay, dead blood and a drop of sperm.

    Now I have to assume that since man was not yet created, this was some sort of “divine” sperm that was produced by god. And if the evidence you purport is true and man is anything like god, the production of this divine sperm is similar to how a man produces it: with stimulation.

    This leads me to conclude god stimulated himself to produce this man-making material while doing so with the image of a “man” in his mind. Given that the human race is predicated upon a homosexual act, why did god then do an about face and condem homosexuals to death for, dare I say, acting very godly?

    Given that the “evidence” of god’s word completely eliminated the feminine component to this creation story, am I supposed to be more attracted to a clay tea-kettle than a woman?

    Your “evidence” leaves me with more questions rather than explanations.

  • God exist #32
    Jan 13, 2018 at 8:02 am

    When reading some of revelations including the Bible and the Torah,
    there is no mystery, only human writing
    otherwise with Koran in arabic ,

    So let me see: The Torah is in Yiddish, for centuries, the Bible was in Greek or Latin, Hindu texts exist in Sanskrit or Tamil, and the Koran is in Arabic!

    it is supernatural giving evidence that is from God they are God s words

    . . . . and all these make this claim of superior knowledge from divine revelation! – With each one claiming their own version(s) of god(s) and divine revelation, to be the ” true one” – exclusively understood by their leaders using their cult language in holy books!

    They look like the standard claims as made by most religions to me!

  • phil rimmer #34
    Jan 13, 2018 at 8:22 am

    So the last Abrahamic messenger and Prophet,
    is of the human elite and to be trusted?

    Joseph Smith, called by angels,
    to the spot and was handed the final part of the Abrahamic story,

    Smith and the book or Mormon, are definitely more recent revelations!

    Joseph Smith characterized the Book of Mormon as the “keystone” of Mormonism, and claimed that it was “the most correct of any book on earth”. (Wiki)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon

    The Book of Mormon is a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement, which adherents believe contains writings of ancient prophets who lived on the American continent from approximately 2200 BC to AD 421.[1][2]
    It was first published in March 1830 by Joseph Smith

    According to Smith’s account and the book’s narrative, the Book of Mormon was originally written in otherwise unknown characters referred to as “reformed Egyptian”[4] engraved on golden plates.
    Smith said that the last prophet to contribute to the book, a man named Moroni, buried it in Cumorah Hill in present-day New York, then returned to Earth in 1827 as an angel,[5] revealing the location of the plates to Smith, and instructing him to translate it into English for use in the restoration of Christ’s true church in the latter days.

    There goes that “special language” needing “special TRUE interpretation”, again!

  • MODERATOR MESSAGE – "GOD EXIST", PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY

    “God exist”, you have complied with our request that you stop posting large chunks of other people’s arguments – thank you for that. And we have seen that there are a number of people here who are willing to discuss your posts with you. So we are happy for you to be joining in the discussions.

    Not so happy, though, that we’re going to let you ignore all the site rules! We need to find a balance that allows you to engage in discussion of your views, without totally disrupting the site.

    We would like you, please, to go to https://www.richarddawkins.net/tcp/ and scroll right down to the bottom, where you will find Section 14: “Do’s and Don’ts, or How to keep the moderators happy”. Please read that section carefully – you can ignore everything else on that page for now.

    If you follow the guidance there, there will be no problem with you continuing to take part in the discussions here. But please especially note the following, which all follows from Section 14:

    1. We ask all users to stay on the topic of the thread. We accept that, in the interests of giving you a fair chance to develop your arguments, and others a chance to respond to them, we have not enforced this rule on the Ten Commandments or Fox Evangelicalism threads, but everywhere else, you do need to post specifically on the subject of the thread, or not at all, and now that you’ve been here a few days we will be enforcing that. This morning we have removed comments from you on yet another thread. While we’re happy for you to take part, we’re not going to allow you to turn every discussion into being about Islam (this also comes under the heading of “drum banging” in Section 14).

    2. We welcome discussion with you, but no one is here to be preached at. Simply quoting the Koran, without any elaboration, is clearly preaching – it is relying on what you believe to be a holy text to make your arguments for you. But no one here believes it is a holy text, so it really doesn’t matter to us what it says – in the absence of a rational reason to believe it to be true, a quote from the Koran is just an assertion like any other, and carries no weight here. If you want to convince anyone here of something contained in it, you will have to do the work yourself: explain, argue, discuss. Tell us why it’s relevant, give us rational reasons to support your belief that it’s true. Not threats about what will happen to us if we don’t believe it (see point 4, below).

    3. The same applies to the assertions you make: you need to back them up, provide some kind of rational reason why we should believe them to be true. No one’s going to believe them just because you or someone else has said them.

    4. No more threats of hell or judgement day, please, whether from the Koran or yourself. Again, no one here believes in either, so such threats can carry no weight with us. But more importantly: threats are threats, and we do not allow threats of any kind to users on the site. If you want to persuade anyone here, you will need to use rational arguments. We will remove all further such threats.

    5. Finally, a discussion is not one-sided. In some cases you have replied to other users’ comments and responses, and that’s good. We also know it can be difficult to be one person dealing with replies from large numbers of people on the other side, so it’s not always possible to respond to everyone, but please bear in mind that if you repeatedly ignore challenges to your views, it does begin to look as if you’re not really looking to discuss them but simply to preach them. Are you prepared to consider challenges to your beliefs, too?

    We hope this will help you to engage more meaningfully on the site, “God exist”. We understand that it can take a while for new users to get the hang of the way things work here, but we do need everyone to abide by certain rules.

    The mods

  • God exist

    I’m curious. Since you have shown that you like to post quotes from the Koran here, would you be willing to post a section of the Koran that you, in your opinion, consider to be of sublime poetic beauty that could only be written by Allah? I understand the feeling of reading beautiful poetry in my own native language. I understand the impulse to say – this could not be written by a mere human, but it is at that point that I say to myself – It IS written by a human. A very clever, creative human who is more gifted and talented than I am and this is why it appears magical to me.

    But I am sincerely interested to see the poetry of the Koran that elicits this feeling in you. I have a copy of the Koran here and can read it through, in English, but you can help us understand your claim of divine poetry in the Koran as best you can.

  • Ha! Isn’t it always the way?

    No, that’s ok, Laurie. You’re asking for an example something that, in GE’s view, could only have been written by Allah. Given his claims for the Koran, that’s a reasonable and potentially helpful request.

    It’s just relying on the Koran to make his arguments for him that is against the Terms of Use, just as it would be to post quotes from any other ‘holy’ book in lieu of rational discussion.

    Mods

  • I was not threating anyone nor preaching..I was just responding….somehow it was delicate to answer everybody….but it seems that only Alan4discussion who was really discussing….some were out of honorable discussion.

  • Telling people they will face hell and/or judgement after death if they don’t believe … is a threat.

    Simply restating what your religion teaches … is preaching.

    Our post was intended to help you understand the rules we apply on the site, GE, since you do need to comply with them.

    The mods

  • rogeroney #22
    Jan 12, 2018 at 7:59 pm

    @ #21 Alan4Discussion

    It’s clear this was an artful attempt to co-opt the best traditions of whatever offshoot of abrahamic beliefs muhammad was raised in with the pagan Arab beliefs he needed to accomodate, in order to gain local acceptance.
    The rise of the islamic religion is of course intimately tied in with the parochial politics and the greater ambitions of its founder.

    Secular rulers and priests are well up to such ploys!

    A few centuries earlier the Romans had incorporated and merged the Greek and Roman gods – before the failing empire bought into Christianity!

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